Discuss AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
It's not as though discussion should be necessary. A quick glance in any dictionary makes clear the meaning of this word.Page 18, in part:
Verbal forms used in BS7671
Implication Verbal form Typical contextRequirement Shall Normative element Recommendation Should Informative element
Yes, like when a judge sentences someone and says “You shall go to prison for 10 years”It's not as though discussion should be necessary. A quick glance in any dictionary makes clear the meaning of this word.
Definition of shall:I'm sorry, but there is no ambiguity where the meaning of shall is concerned
It is a statement 'You shall do this', rather than a question 'shall we do this? '.
The wording clearly states what is to be done and doesn't ask for opinion.
Thanks. Getting clearer. But still some grey here....It's not as though discussion should be necessary. A quick glance in any dictionary makes clear the meaning of this word.
Definition of shall:
"Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions.
There is a difference between shall and must. If they want to change the definitions of words from dictionaries then they have to state what their words mean. Page 18? If there is an absence of them not supplying a definition for their changed meanings of words, the dictionary meanings are what we go by. Must is well .... must. We all know what that means. No ambiguity. Anything else besides must, does not have to be done.
421.1.7 says: "AFDD"..."shall be provided".
Shall is clearly not must. In short, with must you have to do it. Maybe page 18 clears the air. People need to know if they have to or it is optional.
Definition of shall:
"Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions.
There is a difference between shall and must. If they want to change the definitions of words from dictionaries then they have to state what their words mean. Page 18? If there is an absence of them not supplying a definition for their changed meanings of words, the dictionary meanings are what we go by. Must is well .... must. We all know what that means. No ambiguity. Anything else besides must, does not have to be done.
421.1.7 says: "AFDD"..."shall be provided".
Shall is clearly not must. In short, with must you have to do it. Maybe page 18 clears the air. People need to know if they have to or it is optional.
You shall go to the ball, Cinderella.
You've made my point here. In any sentence, not ending with a question mark, the word tells you what you will do.Definition of shall:
"Shall" is a modal verb used to indicate future action. It is most commonly used in sentences with "I" or "we," and is often found in suggestions, such as "Shall we go?" "Shall" is also frequently used in promises or voluntary actions.
There is a difference between shall and must. If they want to change the definitions of words from dictionaries then they have to state what their words mean. Page 18? If there is an absence of them not supplying a definition for their changed meanings of words, the dictionary meanings are what we go by. Must is well .... must. We all know what that means. No ambiguity. Anything else besides must, does not have to be done.
421.1.7 says: "AFDD"..."shall be provided".
Shall is clearly not must. In short, with must you have to do it. Maybe page 18 clears the air. People need to know if they have to or it is optional.
I can see why they had to put in their own definition. The regs were written over decades by many people, using different words.Page 18, in part:
Verbal forms used in BS7671
Implication Verbal form Typical contextRequirement Shall Normative element Recommendation Should Informative element
They are not using the correct words. So much they have to put in definitions. If I was writing it, and I have done tech' writing, I would use the word must not shall, which has no ambiguity.They are not changing the definitions of words, you are using the wrong definition for the context.
I can see why they had to put in their own definition. The regs were written over decades by many people, using different words.
They are not using the correct words. So much they have to put in definitions. If I was writing it, and I have done tech' writing, I would use the word must not shall, which has no ambiguity.
I do not think it is pointless. They are still using ambiguity to the point they need a definition. They are using legacy writing. They can keep the definition of course as most of the regs were written way back. But future writings must be direct and clear and unambiguous.You could always write to the IET expressing your concerns.
A bit pointless though as that concern has already been clarified by page 18.
In light of this conversation, and a recently posted video of a similar conversation, I think you may have a valid point.I do not think it is pointless. They are still using ambiguity to the point they need a definition. They are using legacy writing. They can keep the definition of course as most of the regs were written way back. But future writings must be direct and clear and unambiguous.
It is pointless in this particular instance as clearly it has been addressed as already stated.I do not think it is pointless. They are still using ambiguity to the point they need a definition. They are using legacy writing. They can keep the definition of course as most of the regs were written way back. But future writings must be direct and clear and unambiguous.
Yes it MUST be.I agree that future writings SHALL be direct, clear, and unambiguous.
Only of you read page 18. This came about because of the ambiguity of whether AFDDs must or not be fitted in certain situations.it never occurred to me that electricians would argue over the meaning of a word for which clear definition exists.
Must we go to those lengths?Yes it MUST be.
Page 18 only becomes relevant if one doesn't understand the meaning of 'shall'.Only of you read page 18. This came about because of the ambiguity of whether AFDDs must or not be fitted in certain situations.
Reply to AFDD in 18th 2nd Amendment in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
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