Best way to improve EPC rating

littlespark · Jan 13, 2023

Got a customer with a little dilemma.
They have a rental cottage attached to their main house, and have successfully let it out for a few years.
It sat empty for a while, and they were going to rent it out again, but it now needs a good EPC certificate before they are allowed to. Best rating they get at the moment is an F, but they need better than that.

The heating at the moment is a couple of wet radiators fed off a back boiler, and old panel heaters as a back up.

The EPC surveyor says the only thing that will help is fitting high retention storage heaters.... but the house hasn't had storage heaters in the past, isnt wired up for it, not off peak meter.

I suggested Roint electric radiators whereever there's a panel heater.... but straight away they said it wasn't good enough.

Do these new type storage heaters need an off peak radial circuit along with a 24hr supply like old ones did, or do they just get timed to turn on when the rate is lower overnight?
I think his supplier is Octopus.

House is an old cottage, solid walls. living room and small bedroom downstairs, with a small kitchen extension out the back. Upstairs is a bigger bedroom and bathroom. Coombed ceilings.

I spend more time taking out storage heaters than fitting new ones, so my knowledge is a little dated

LukeD · Jan 13, 2023

Very little is ever checked.... A cert is "seen" .They tick a box

Job done

pirate · Jan 13, 2023

Every EPC is visible online.
Many letting agents will check ALL required paperwork is in place.
Letting without it or below standard is leaving the landlord open to action.

littlespark · Jan 13, 2023

The surveyor has already been out... hence they got the F rating.

All they say is "high retention" heaters.... I dont think they have high efficiency electric radiators like rointe in their software.

What is the point of rointe, fischer, etc if they are not deemed to be good enough for an EPC?
I found a thread from 3 years ago asking if fischer etc were as good as they advertised. Seemingly still not.

The customer is wanting to do it all right... this is the same customer that had the burned out EV charge point over xmas on another of my threads

SparkySy · Jan 13, 2023

I have fitted some new storage heaters, since LOT20 came in they need 2 supplies to work properly E7 or 10 for the storage part and a standard supply for the control and panel boost heater on most units.
I'm not sure if you could control the off peak input within the heaters set up.
Although I would imagine you could fit a timer to the off peak supply side if no E tariff was available but this would be very expensive for your customer.

Not used the Rointe heaters so cannot comment on what they are like, but I do have a customer with Fischer units throughout their property. Set up correctly on a E10 tariff they seem very effective at heating the house consistently. They aren't the cheapest to run though from what my customer has said but he is happy as they keep them suitably comfortable and were much better at this than the previous storage heaters which would not hold the charge long enough for consistency of heat.
Sy

belco145 · Feb 2, 2023

I'm in a similar situation. EPC has been rated an F for my top-floor one-bed flat. Needs to be improved but the only significant improvement suggested was high heat retention heaters. We currently have electric heaters.
I'm tempted but I've heard high heat retention heaters are a pain in the a** (if you disagree please say so - just what I've heard!). Is there any other kind of electric heating system I could install that would improve the EPC?

grumpyjohn01 · Feb 2, 2023

I was personally in the same situation as I live in a privately rented house but have 'looked after' the property electrically etc for most of my tenancy. There was no solution I could find as I do not have E7 and I understand it is now difficult or impossible to get a suitable tariff if you are not already on it. The solution came unexpectedly from the council rep who said it was exempt because I had been a continuous tenant since before 2008. I don't know if this is strictly correct but I asked no more questions and the letters have stopped. I know of others in similar situations who have let their un-epc-able properties to 'staff' as a workaround, dunno if this is strictly legit either!

pirate · Feb 2, 2023

As someone who has some knowledge of the rental market (in Scotland) the whole system is flawed. On this one point alone, EPC rating, we have "lost" many much-needed rental properties because the landlords either can't or won't (due to cost) upgrade their properties.
My view is that if you cannot acheive the required EPC rating, then you should still be allowed to rent, but that rental should be set at a slightly lower rate than standard.
There are many reasons for this view, but the fact remains that sub-standard rentals still proliferate, and at the same time this legislation along with many other changes has driven many landlords out of the letting business altogether, with the result that many rentals have been lost in the PRS, which is a bad situation for all concerned.

davesparks · Feb 13, 2023

littlespark said:
All they say is "high retention" heaters.... I dont think they have high efficiency electric radiators like rointe in their software.

Rointe heaters aren't any more efficient than a £19.99 convector heater from homebase. Electric heaters are as near to 100% efficient as it is possible to be without breaking the laws of physics.

littlespark said:
What is the point of rointe, fischer, etc if they are not deemed to be good enough for an EPC?

The point of them is to make money out of the unsuspecting public who didn't pay enough attention at school.

grumpyjohn01 · Feb 13, 2023

davesparks said:
The point of them is to make money out of the unsuspecting public who didn't pay enough attention at school.

To be fair, the laws of physics not withstanding, some of them do have reasonably sophisticated controls, even ai (hot topic) learning, occupancy sensing, open window sensing, better thermostatic control of room temp not heater temp, app control etc. Not worth the premium imho over the £19.99 option but people seem to like the modern styling etc. I've had nothing but rave reviews on the few occaisions I've fitted them. I think they do count for more points on EPC than ordinary dumb panel heaters but not many and not as many for some reason as the latest NSH options.

littlespark · Feb 13, 2023

I’ve had plenty confirmation from the customer that the only thing the epc surveyors will accept is high retention storage heaters.

For this particular property, where there has been no storage heaters before, I’m going to have to run radials to each position, a new db and the customer to organise changing tariff with an off peak.

I’ve never been convinced on the running costs of new electric radiators against storage heaters…. But if that’s what the customer wants….

davesparks · Feb 13, 2023

Coukd they improve insulation, fit secondary glazing etc as a means of improving the EPC?

Have they already gone over to fully LED lighting?

What is the fuel source for the back boiler?

brianmoooore · Feb 13, 2023

littlespark said:
I’ve had plenty confirmation from the customer that the only thing the epc surveyors will accept is high retention storage heaters.

For this particular property, where there has been no storage heaters before, I’m going to have to run radials to each position, a new db and the customer to organise changing tariff with an off peak.

I’ve never been convinced on the running costs of new electric radiators against storage heaters…. But if that’s what the customer wants….

Just stick the things in place for the EPC inspector (plucked from the dole queue a couple of days before) to see. Don't bother to wire them up, because the tenant will never be able to afford to run them in a poorly insulated house.
Money would be far better spent keeping the existing heat in with improved insulation.

littlespark · Feb 13, 2023

davesparks said:
Coukd they improve insulation, fit secondary glazing etc as a means of improving the EPC?

Have they already gone over to fully LED lighting?

What is the fuel source for the back boiler?

he says he's already insulated the attic, and was thinking of secondary glazing..

I'll have to check the lighting situation, and i believe it would be wood or coal for the back boiler..... but not sure if hes keeping that.

Im wondering if the same EPC system is in place for an AirBNB type holiday let?
He could just furnish it and rent it out for weekends

Avo Mk8 · Feb 13, 2023

This may have been done already, but the owner of the cottage should check whether any of the MEES exemptions would help them. The current position is described on the Government website (and lots of other sites!)

Domestic private rented property: minimum energy efficiency standard - landlord guidance

Guidance for landlords of domestic private rented property on how to comply with the 2018 ‘Minimum Level of Energy Efficiency’ standard (EPC band E).

www.gov.uk

As I understand it, at the moment, there's a cost cap of £3k5, that means if you haven't reached a satisfactory EPC figure by the time you've spent that, you don't have to spend any more, and can apply for an exemption. You can include money already spent on energy efficiency improvements since October 2017 in that £3k5.
Of course if no such money has been spent in the last 5 years, and the recommendations from the EPC will achieve better than F without costing £3k5, then ignore the above and fit electric heaters!

There is speculation about the government setting a higher bar (eg an EPC of 'C') in the future, but many suspect this not actually going to happen.

littlespark · Feb 13, 2023

That’s interesting, avo…. But I’ll have to have a see if there’s a Scottish equivalent.

Avo Mk8 · Feb 13, 2023

littlespark said:
Im wondering if the same EPC system is in place for an AirBNB type holiday let?
He could just furnish it and rent it out for weekends

This might be a way ahead. The MEES regulations currently do not apply to holiday lets.
Edit: this is in England! sorry!
It's slightly complicated - if the situation meets the requirements of a holiday let, let for at least 20 weeks a year (HMRC requirement to qualify), landlord pays for energy, property fully furnished etc etc

littlespark said:
That’s interesting, avo…. But I’ll have to have a see if there’s a Scottish equivalent.

Yes sorry - missed that point!

I also didn't know until this evening that EPC figures are worked out in slightly different ways for England and Scotland, so the same property might end up with different EPC ratings depending on which country it's in!

mattg4321 · Feb 13, 2023

Fitting PV usually gives a good improvement to EPC score

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