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Discuss 12v lighting in a bathroom in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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ian hall

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Have been asked to fit recessed lights in a bathroom. The mains will be in a joint box in the loft so would you worry about fitting an rcd?

Thanks

Ian
 
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brs73

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Arms
yes.all new circuits in a bathroom have gotta be on a 30ma rcd.
 
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Tiger

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  • #3
I thought a selv circuit were aloud in the bathroom and it would not be possible to touch 240v, as it's not a re-wire your not touching existing circuits.
 
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ian hall

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  • #4
Just seems mad to rcd 12v lights as the mains "risk" is actually outside the room.

Ian
 
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L&B Electrics

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don't forget the lights need to be ip rated
 
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ian hall

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  • #6
I normally use those shower ones with the glass cover when a light is near a shower,althogh the new fire rated downlights have that rubber seal between the lamp and the fitting and the lamps have a glass cover,so you would have to be pretty keen to get a shock!!!
 
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DanBrown

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  • #7
Back to the question!, does it need an RCD??
For me i'd say not with the mains above ceiling and out of the way and being 12v lights, but what does everyone else think on this?
 
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jeremy

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Mentor
Arms
12vSELV in a special or other location does not need any special consideration providing the source of the mains power is outside of the room. Iwould normally recommend 230v fittings to avoid transformers and that would rquire consideration but seperate extra low voltage; lick the fingers and let the tingly times roll!!
 
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ian hall

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  • #9
If they were GU10 fittings then an rcd would be required. Low voltage lightd still give a better light in my opinion but thats another story.

Ian
 
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Spudnik

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  • #10
I think that ANY equipment installed in a bathroom must be RCD protected regardless of whether its 12 or 230V.

Page 69 OSG.
 

jeremy

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Arms
Why does selv need rcd protection if there is no shock risk ? I'm not being argumentative but feel I'm missing something.
 
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WarrenG

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  • #12
I think that ANY equipment installed in a bathroom must be RCD protected regardless of whether its 12 or 230V.

Page 69 OSG.
I think I would agree.

Hager have produced a document on their new 17th edition boards that also qoutes the use of RCD protection in bathrooms and SELV (attached)
 
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jeremy

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Arms
osg relates to 230v circuits. wheras i would use IP fittings to protect against corrosion if they were selv if the transformer is in the ceiling then its outside the zone. Its not a new circuit; I don't see the necessity.
 
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assured elec

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  • #14
All circuit in a bathroom are now required to be on an rcd , but you are not putting a new circuit in the bathroom are you ? if they have a light already , you are just changing the light for a different light , all be it you are putting in spots . so as long as you put in the right spots with the right ip rating you should be fine( what do you lads think??????)
..
or you could just run the sw live + n through and RCD fuse spare in the loft before your 1st spot..

Its a bit of a funny situation , like today , i went to a small job , bathroom light not working , 2D fitting , turned out it was a faulty pull switch which was also in the bathroom, fix the pull 5 mins , so do i now need to put the circuit on an RCD as i was last to work on it ??? I never
 
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Spudnik

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  • #15
osg relates to 230v circuits. wheras i would use IP fittings to protect against corrosion if they were selv if the transformer is in the ceiling then its outside the zone. Its not a new circuit; I don't see the necessity.
The OSG does not specify circuit voltage.

Quote:

"all the circuits of the location must be protected by 30mA RCD's."



If the circuit is being repaired or switch replaced then no, but as new lighting is being installed, then the way i see it is yes.
 
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Tiger

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  • #16
It's my understanding that 12v circuit is fine, i will check. Now your argument for it being an existing circuit doesnt work for me as it's a special location and if you are touching any special location you must upgrade it to the latest regs. :confused: I hate the grey areas, ive even had 2 different answers on things from 2 different people at the Nic before:D

The OSG does not specify circuit voltage.

Quote:

"all the circuits of the location must be protected by 30mA RCD's."

I'am sure i have read a seperate thing somewhere specifying selv are ok. Will have to find it
 
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jeremy

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Arms
The circuit (230) isn't in the bathroom, it's in the ceiling. The circuit (12) in the bathroom is not connected to the "mains" and is SEPERATE extra low voltage designed for its lack of danger
 
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Spudnik

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  • #18
I agree Tiger, so at the end of the day, as this needs notifying i would just do it.

Could easily be done with an RCD spur that covers bathroom lighting only.

Fair enough jeremy, but i think ill stick to the regs:)

in particular: 701.411.3.3
 
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jeremy

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Arms
Sorry fella, page11 1.1.ii at a nominal voltage of 230V single phase etc. I take no joy in that
 

jeremy

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Arms
Maybe i should read these regs fully! Sorry guys , not trying to be a pain but like to understand why, not just do because I'm told to!
 
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Spudnik

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  • #22
Maybe i should read these regs fully! Sorry guys , not trying to be a pain but like to understand why, not just do because I'm told to!
There are LOADS of regs in the BRB that most of us would love to know why.

Unfortunately, the book is not designed to explain why,
Its just to tell us how to comply.

I didnt know i was a poet:D
 
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lister

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  • #23
biggest problem with the regs is how different people interpret them if they were written in plain english it might help


all these new regs seem fine for new installs or refits but for upgrades seems to me like a lot of work just to change the light fittings, i dont like the rcd in loft idea, customers playing hunt the reset button- not great, and anyway seems to be out side of the 450 - 1200mm mounting height.

heres my interpretation

Q- how many circuits has house got
A- count no of mcb's in cu

so surley after fiting spots mcb quantity is the same, so no new curcuit there then. so only minor works and part p reg needed, not rcd.
 
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WarrenG

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  • #24
You would think using the same lighting feed to the bathroom, it would just be that, but it is a special location.

Thats how I interpret it anyway?
 
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Spudnik

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  • #25
Chaps,

ANY circuit in a bathroom or special location now requires RCD protection. If the install is reasonably new then its possible that there may be a spare way in the DB on the RCD side so the MCB which has the bathroom on would just need swapping over.

If the install seems dated then, without huge cost to the customer, an RCD spur, not neccessarily fitted in the loft (airing cupboard) can be installed to protect the bathroom lighting only.

IF a pull switch, shaver socket, ceiling light is being replaced like for like then no need.

At the end of the day, its your name on the cert, which will be needed, and also this work would need notifying, therefore it will be fully traceable right back to your front door if an injury ever occurred and you failed to comply.
 
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ian hall

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  • #26
I,ve had 2 more bathroom jobs in the last 2 days. Low voltage ceiling light and one of those light/fan units where the light is 12v and the fan is up in the roof. Why is an rcd needed on either of these. Has anyone had an opinion from the Niceic on this?


Ian
 
Why on earth would you want an opinion from the NICEIC? You should be working to BS7671 - these have nothing to do with any Scheme Operator. The regs require you to RCD any new or altered circuit in a bathroom - dispensation is not given for low voltage down-lighters. I find it somewhat concerning that many people who should have (by now) passed an exam on the 17th Ed of the regs seem to know very little about them - yet seem confident in their abilities to work unsupervised!
 
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ezzzekiel

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  • #28
regs do require rcd protection to all circuits in special location, which is a bit of a dumber considering the 12V output of the transformer has no relationship to the earthed neutral of the supply so an RCD would not detect a fault on the circuit. but as already mentioned a rcd spur isnt a big extra effort (although there is also argument that the whole circ needs rcd not just the part youre working on)


there is always a difference in opinion on interpretation of the regs, and my view is as youre the electrician, as long as in the event of going in to see the judge you can explain how you carried out the works and how to the best of your view you have complied then i cant see a problem on how you achieve it.
 
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