2391 is it really fair?

[stephanjs]

"I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person."
Would you be happy if this rule was introduced regarding the driving test?
Because, I believe although I could be wrong, more people are killed in car accidents every year than in electrical accidents. Or would it be appropriate for you to have to resit the C&G 236 or 2330 depending on when you took them as technology and working methods have progressed since I served my apprenticeship. Does that make me more or less "competent" than a 22 year old who qualified last week for example?

Gas Safe competent persons are retested every 5 years. And regarding the driving comparison, rarely if ever is the installer injured or killed due to his or her faulty installation. It always affect an innocent user.

 

[Silly Sausage]

"I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person."
Would you be happy if this rule was introduced regarding the driving test?
Because, I believe although I could be wrong, more people are killed in car accidents every year than in electrical accidents. Or would it be appropriate for you to have to resit the C&G 236 or 2330 depending on when you took them as technology and working methods have progressed since I served my apprenticeship. Does that make me more or less "competent" than a 22 year old who qualified last week for example?

I've thought of that before, re-test every 5 years (I'm a reasonable person), it would empty the roads of most of the idiots who shouldn't be behind a wheel and vastly reduce the number of RTA deaths.
With the added bonus I'll be able to drive from A to B much quicker!

 

[trev]

Gas safe people do not risk having their qualifications rescinded though mate, only their gas safe cards. Much the same as a part p registered spark having his scam membership cancelled.
The questions still stand,
Would you be happy to retake your driving test every 5 years? Yes/No?
Would you be happy to retake C&G 236/2330 every 5 years? Yes/No?
Technology, installation methods and materials have changed immeasurably since I qualified 29 years ago. Does this make me more or less competent than someone who qualified last week? Yes/No?

 

[trev]

I've thought of that before, re-test every 5 years

Archy, I completely agree with you on this I'm just trying to open up the discussion a bit. Stephan opened a can of worms imho so I'm trying to either get him to see a bigger picture or sell me his idea

 

[Silly Sausage]

If my eyes can re adjust, I think he's trying to say he wants tighter regulation on the domestic front.
That subject has been done to death with no answer. As I mentioned on another thread, you don't get this problem in ind/comm due to the selection process.
As for redoing 2391 every 5 years, he can go and...

 

[Generator]

The DNO is the "Distribution Network Operator" ie the supply authority - local area board as we called them in saner days.
I assume the 'the part of the supply' you can't measure is the incoming fault level of the supply, related to the earth loop impedance Zo of the supply. This can be obtained by reference to the DNO.

 

[sam87]

Passed my 2391 1st time with little to no experience and now struggling to find work.

 

[Rampage]

On the 6th page the OP questions are finally answered!

 

[randym68]

Not strictly true mate, you can put down a total load of nonsense but if you get the right answer you will get 1 mark. The way it works is if the question is worth say 5 marks you get 1 for each stage of the calculation

2391 sorry to say no one seems to have got this correct , this was from my tutor an ex exam marker...

it isn't marked like usual exams its called negative marking. you start the paper with full marks and they have prescribed answers, and some flexibility. for everything you state incorrectly or incorrect order even, you loose a mark, so for example:- 3 points , if you had to state the 7 tests, then you missed out polarity, then you would get 0 marks....continuity, insulation.... correct, the rest are wrong -4 marks....because you haven't done polarity..therefore every test after that isn't built on known information and dangerous ( in their opinion)... that's why its sooo tough to pass,

also you can get the whole question right, but state 2 incorrect facts because you waffled on....you loose marks for those wrong statements

just to put this into perspective that's how all medical exams , and my architecture degree was done, because the consequences of mistakes are greater than doing nothing or admitting you don't know...and it was the hardest exam i took , that includes my microsoft and cisco exams..

so easy to loose marks, and low pass rate hence, few pass it...and its worth a lot...probably why employers ask for it, as a mark of ability

the reason some experienced sparkeys fail is they get vocab wrong, the reason its harder for book worms to pass is its trouble shooting elements... takes more experience

for example one question was describe IR test on 3 phase (poly-phase) supply , many put down safe isolation 10 steps ("supply" gets ya) when its less tests bridging the different lines, as a result many lost all marks as each additional step takes marks off.

so thats my input PS i been wiring since i was 12 years old....3 generations of sparkys......fun discussions at family do's...and grandads pfft at the new regs lol...which i understand when a voltage tester was two wet fingers in his day...and before anyone wants to do him down...he kept the few flying in WW2 so we owe him a lot

 

[Octopus]

Yawn.......

 

[SPARTYKUS]

As an additional point there has been critisism of the 2391 and how people with little or no experience can just 'remember it all' and pass.

Well what about the other half of the 2391? You know the bloke with a clipboard and stop watch expecting you to fully & correctly perform a periodic on a live 3 phase board?

No prisoners when I did it!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Just to move back a bit to the pass rate

It can't be that hard to guesstimate the %. When you think about it and then have a look at the chief examiners report. candidates were throwing away marks on: (my approximation)

1/ Terminology = 40
2/ IR calcs = 8
3/Drawing a fully labelled diagram = 10
4/ rfc calcs = 8
5/ pfc and rcd calcs = 8
6/ sequencing of tests = 10 (they used to deduct marks for wrong answers here!)
As an example :
List the correct sequence of tests when initial testing a lighting circuit so some answers would include rfc testing ! That would be a loss of at least 2 marks plus an extra loss of rest for then being out of sequence. = 10

Add them up and you have approximately 94 marks. then consider that there is only 150 marks available

((150 - 94) /150) * 100 = 37%

Hardly a pass mark.....

Having said all that. To get a 'C' grade at GCSE maths you only need 18%

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Well, it will become a legend shortly and my 2391 certificate will remain on the wall for as long as, and no one can make me re take it.

The new one will always have to live up to the (exclusive) one you can no longer take!

 

[MRMETS]

I do agree that the 2391 is hard and in fact I must admit it took me 3 goes before I passed the exam, even though I have been heavily involved with testing throughout my career. There is a lot in the exam to get right and the terminology or for want of a better word the diction that the C & G are expecting must be there to pass, I have been on several courses over the last few years i.e. the 16th & 17th BS 7671, the PATS course and the 2391 as well as the MIST safety course and Compex course and by far the 2391 was the hardest course that I have done for many many years since leaving Uni.

I do however think that as some of the replies have already stated it has to be hard to prove that you are a competent inspector and understand with a complete knowledge of testing and inspecting. Getting back to those unfair questions, yes they do throw you a few side way questions but that’s to make you think outside the box. I have met a great mix and bunch of lads on some of these courses and there is a stigma associated with the 2391, as one lad told me who was in his 50’s that he had given up with the 2391 as he had failed the written exam 12 times, and to be honest when I failed the first time it was a blow and the second time was even worse, but I persevered and swotted until I got through. I have just past my 60 mark and even in these late years I meet electricians that have no intention of going for the 2391 due to it’s infamous reputation, but if you can pass it you are proving to yourself as well as everybody else that you know what you are doing when it comes to inspection and testing.

The long term view on the 2391 is that eventually every electrician will be qualified to that level and even now they are already seem to be bringing in a new version the 2395 as an update with the introduction of BS 7671 2011. I still get dismayed when I occasionally come across an electrician that does not test at all, you might think this is isolated, but I can assure you it is not and that is also one of the original main reasons for the 2391 course. In the past far too many electricians took for granted that they had wired the job up right and so everything was OK, when in fact it was not, as an example an old friend from my apprentice days asked me to check out a job that he had done several years ago before part P came into force, as it turned out he never tested anything and assumed that because the RCD test button tripped the DB main input RCD everything was correct. When I tested the earth rod my meter I found that the earth reading exceeded the stated maximum resistance by 800 Ω and simulating a x 1 fault at 30mA and also a 5 x fault at a 130mA would not trip the main DB RCD for the sockets. This guy was ashen faced as he realised that he had not tested any of the jobs he had done for years, in fact he did not even own a RCD tester or any other test meter for that matter, all he used was a cheap multimeter and a standard plug in type Multi LED socket tester that obviously did not indicate that there was no decent earth available on the installation.

The whole point of the 2391 course is to instil into electricians that when an installation is complete it is fully tested and the results must comply with the current requirements of BS 7671 2011, with specific reference to disconnection times, and the protection device used to protect the installation against fire and more importantly personal protection for the people using the installation or someone could be killed.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Great post MRMETS

 

[alarm man]

2391 sorry to say no one seems to have got this correct , this was from my tutor an ex exam marker...

it isn't marked like usual exams its called negative marking. you start the paper with full marks and they have prescribed answers, and some flexibility. for everything you state incorrectly or incorrect order even, you loose a mark, so for example:- 3 points , if you had to state the 7 tests, then you missed out polarity, then you would get 0 marks....continuity, insulation.... correct, the rest are wrong -4 marks....because you haven't done polarity..therefore every test after that isn't built on known information and dangerous ( in their opinion)... that's why its sooo tough to pass,

also you can get the whole question right, but state 2 incorrect facts because you waffled on....you loose marks for those wrong statements

just to put this into perspective that's how all medical exams , and my architecture degree was done, because the consequences of mistakes are greater than doing nothing or admitting you don't know...and it was the hardest exam i took , that includes my microsoft and cisco exams..

so easy to loose marks, and low pass rate hence, few pass it...and its worth a lot...probably why employers ask for it, as a mark of ability

the reason some experienced sparkeys fail is they get vocab wrong, the reason its harder for book worms to pass is its trouble shooting elements... takes more experience

for example one question was describe IR test on 3 phase (poly-phase) supply , many put down safe isolation 10 steps ("supply" gets ya) when its less tests bridging the different lines, as a result many lost all marks as each additional step takes marks off.

so thats my input PS i been wiring since i was 12 years old....3 generations of sparkys......fun discussions at family do's...and grandads pfft at the new regs lol...which i understand when a voltage tester was two wet fingers in his day...and before anyone wants to do him down...he kept the few flying in WW2 so we owe him a lot

so you have to fail instead of pass,that make sence...

 

[Guest55]

so you have to fail instead of pass,that make sence...

Agree with alarm man here
Sorry randy , but your post is complete claptrap with regards to your comment on 2391 exam marking.

 

[Bright-spark]

Well, considerring that 2301 is a CnG level three and compare the exam with 2377 which is level three as well but multiple choice exam which you really can't fail, I am afraid I have to agree: no it is not fair. 2391 is possible the hardest exam to pass and in my opinion a bit undervalued.

The level of qualifications is not determined by how hard the exam is but by how you are expected to use it after the event. Level 2 - follow set procedures, Level 3 - make decisions based on the info learnt. Level 4 - apply principles to solve problems.

Which is why both 2377 and 2391 are level 3. By the way 2377 has the highest pass mark (80%) of any electrical qualification.

 

[Rampage]

Do you not think that the reason 'Electrical Trainee' pass is because they are a fresh page, they haven't been doing it the way they think is correct for the last however many years etc?
Especially with the terminology.

 

[trev]

Do you not think that the reason 'Electrical Trainee' pass is because they are a fresh page, they haven't been doing it the way they think is correct for the last however many years etc?
Especially with the terminology.

No, I think that's nonsense. Anyone who passes does it because they have put in enough work to do so