Discuss 3 Phase 125 a fused isolator, neutrals all melted! in the Canada area at ElectriciansForums.net

S

sparks1653

I got an emergency callout today from a theatre i do a lot of work for. they had lost power to their stage lighting systems. after a visual inspection the neutral bar of the isolator has melted a lot and the cable discolored and brittle. obviously there is the fault!

i was thinking about just installing another 125a isolator, however there is no reason this fault wouldnt happen again, as nothing will be different. The cable supplying the isolator is bolted straight to an incoming bus bar setup. then through the isolator to a 125a 3p-n-e socket. it is then broken down into 3 x 63a single phase sockets each one supplying a dimmer rack for their lighting systems. each one on a separate phase.

the reason this is unpredictable is for every show the load balancing on each phase is different, so i need the most versatile safest way of resolving this.

i came up with a few different ideas and wanted advice on which sounded the best. or if anyone has a better idea.

1) come off the bus bar supply into a 3-p-n-e distribution board then have 3 x 63a single phase breakers suppling SWA supplies to each 63a socket

if i do this would it still be a good idea to have an isolator near each socket even though they are close to the distribution board, or would that suffice?

2) same as existing, come off the bus bar supply into a 3p-n-e 125a isolator, then to a 125a 3p-n-e socket and then split down to 63a single phase sockets (doesnt seem logical to me)

3) come off the bus bars with 3 separate cables - 1 off each phase, into 3 separate 63a single phase fused rotary isolators each one supplying a 63a socket

4) some combination of all of the above!
 
sparks,
This is NOT an issue that can be solved on an internet forum IMHO.
You may have several issues and if your ideas are just rewiring then this may be one of them.
Unless we can understand the details of the connected kit then you are on your own.
If you don't know the answer, then sorry there is little I can do from here to solve the problem
If you want me to come over and sort it I can, but not remotely sorry.
My rates are reasonable for a consultant who can also implement the findings.
Just rewiring is not the answer.
 
thats the issue i am having too. they cant tell me the loading for any of these circuits as none of their lighting is permanent so its changed from show to show, so the phases will be loaded differently, different current requirements (max 63a each dimmer rack though) and also they use the lighting for stage lighting, so they can be using any combination of lights in any one of the 3 dimmer racks at any time really. sorry i am not being very specific i know i havent given too much to go on.
 
Neutral issues in my experience when charred or burning out tend to be down to poor connection but this isnt always the case as every job must be assessed as seen, you say the neutral bar has melted ???? Is it physically melted as in brass blob or you just trying to explain it better on how much heat was their i find it hard to believe it melted, also a pic would have been nice you can visually usually assess the cable that created the overheating the rest will just be transferred heat damage.
 
top,
There are other issues, and these may well be significant, and IMHO, if the OP does not understand these at this point, then all they are liable to do is dig themselves a bigger hole.
Sorry OP, but if you cannot see the issues that may be present, then again IMHO you should allow someone who is competent to take over and sort the issue, as from your posts it appears you are well out of your depth, and are risking yourself, the performers and the general public along with the structure of the building, if you choose to carry on then if I were you I would check my insurances, else you could end up homeless and penniless.
I appreciate the assistance ethic of the forum, but advice in an internet forum post does not equal competence, and sorry, it seems you are not competent to do this work.
Please pass this on to someone who is competent before you kill someone.
 
A 125amp fused isolator is designed to carry all the loads up to and including 125amps, they are tested to the overload current and there duration needed to blow the fuses, if the neutrals have overheated you are looking at a loose connection which wont be apparent now as it will have welded itself or the cable sizing.
The biggest current the neutral will have in it in theory in normal working conditions would be 125amp if 2 phases not loaded and one was at max load, as you load up the remaining phases the neutral current will drop.
 
darkwood,
I think you may have missed the crux of the OP?
Yes went slightly off keel there cheers for the note... i just picked up on when he said "whats to stop it happening again?" if he copied the existing .... must stop skipping across long op's me thinks lol
 
@ darkwood, thank you for the advice. yeah when i said melted the lug on the neutral has welded itself to the neutral bar inside the isolator, and the nut and bolt securing it have melted around the lug and bar - now making connections of the neutrals very loose in there. so you think my idea of running the 3p-n-e supply to a distribution board and then out of that 3 individual 63a singles would be a better idea than simple replacing the isolator?
 
My posts are suggestions on where to look etc but as Netblindpaul has stated the issues leading to the burnout may be far more complex due to the use of the building, i give posts to help you view a different angle but i cant say in your case the best way to approach this as i havent seen the install and and cant establish why your neutral burnt out, i suggest you read-up a little on stray currents and unwanted noise and there causes before commiting to a solution.
 
To my mind you’ve got a problem with harmonics. Is the neutral ½ core?
To be honest I can’t understand the where plugs and sockets come in to the set up. I take it that this is a permanent set up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It’s not likely to be a conventional fault given the situation. My best advice is contact Paul and take him up on his offer. Given the situation the dangers to the public can’t be ignored.
 
the first thing that popped into my head when i read this post earlier in the van, was harmonics. especially as the dimmer units ect may be switched mode, and i know DMX supplies use electronics. As spin mentioned, it may also be something as simple as a loose connection.
 

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