415v 3 phase sockets and rcd protection.

[Deleted member 26818]

Unless the Manufacturer’s Instructions say otherwise.
Stationary equipment commercial or domestic does not require RCD protection.
However BS7671 now requires all socket-outlets rated 32A and below to be provided with RCD protection unless in non-domestic installations, a documented Risk Assessment concluding RCD protection is provided.

“411.3.3 Additional requirements for socket-outlets and for the supply of mobile equipment for use outdoors
In AC systems, additional protection by means of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for:
(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.
An exception to (i) is permitted where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary.

The requirements of Regulation 411.3.3 do not apply to FELV systems according to Regulation 411.7 or reduced low voltage systems according to Regulation 411.8.
NOTE 1: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.3.2 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.
NOTE 2: See Appendix 2, item 11 in respect of risk assessment.
NOTE 3: A lighting distribution unit complying with BS 5733, luminaire track system, installation coupler, LSC or DCL is not regarded as a socket-outlet for the purposes of this regulation.”

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Im not looking for a way round it, just trying to emphasize that as agreed the stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection, it’s totally unnecessary..

You need to learn to read, before replying and disagreeing with people who can read.

 

[Charlie_]

Unless the Manufacturer’s Instructions say otherwise.
Stationary equipment commercial or domestic does not require RCD protection.
However BS7671 now requires all socket-outlets rated 32A and below to be provided with RCD protection unless in non-domestic installations, a documented Risk Assessment concluding RCD protection is provided.

“411.3.3 Additional requirements for socket-outlets and for the supply of mobile equipment for use outdoors
In AC systems, additional protection by means of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA shall be provided for:
(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.
An exception to (i) is permitted where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary.

The requirements of Regulation 411.3.3 do not apply to FELV systems according to Regulation 411.7 or reduced low voltage systems according to Regulation 411.8.
NOTE 1: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.3.2 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.
NOTE 2: See Appendix 2, item 11 in respect of risk assessment.
NOTE 3: A lighting distribution unit complying with BS 5733, luminaire track system, installation coupler, LSC or DCL is not regarded as a socket-outlet for the purposes of this regulation.”

Thanks for confirming what I previously said..
Very much appreciated

 

[Charlie_]

You need to learn to read, before replying and disagreeing with people who can read.

And it would appear that you need to understand what you are reading

 

[Charlie_]

He is installing a socket outlet.

He doesn’t need to.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

He doesn’t need to.

No he doesn’t, he can say: “Get someone else to do it.”

 

[Charlie_]

Or he can come on here and ask for advice on other ways to do the job, saving himself lots of unnecessary work and ultimately saving his client money..
Or you can carry on being obtuse and childish..
you have totally ruined this thread for the op and shown to me that you are very childish and petty

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As far as I can see, you’ve offered no constructive advice at all.
All you’ve done is disagree with people who have.
My advice has been to use a socket with built in RCD, rather than installing a hard to obtain RCD at the CU.
Another option would be to use 63A sockets.

As it stands I doubt anyone could legitimately produce a Risk Assessment which concludes RCD protection is not required.

 

[Charlie_]

As far as I can see, you’ve offered no constructive advice at all.
All you’ve done is disagree with people who have.
My advice has been to use a socket with built in RCD, rather than installing a hard to obtain RCD at the CU.
Another option would be to use 63A sockets.

As it stands I doubt anyone could legitimately produce a Risk Assessment which concludes RCD protection is not required.

I suggest you read back through the thread from the start!
I have only given constructive advice!
Please prove otherwise..
I have been involved in the installation and repair of commercial catering equipment for 25 years, I am an approved engineer for many brands.
What has been suggested is totally unnecessary..
just because you can’t do something doesn’t mean that it can’t be done, a risk assessment in this instance would be easy enough..
It’s stationary equipment that doesn’t need RCD protection

 

[davesparks]

Im not looking for a way round it, just trying to emphasize that as agreed the stationary equipment doesn’t need RCD protection, it’s totally unnecessary..

Or he can come on here and ask for advice on other ways to do the job, saving himself lots of unnecessary work and ultimately saving his client money..
Or you can carry on being obtuse and childish..
you have totally ruined this thread for the op and shown to me that you are very childish and petty

RCD protection isn't required for stationary equipment, this does not mean that it is totally unnecessary as you put it. RCD protection could still be installed for stationary equipment over and above the minimum standards set out in bs7671.

However the OP is installing socket outlets, we don't know why they are installing socket outlets, just that they are.
You've made the assumption that the cooking equipment is to be stationary equipment which could reasonably be permanently connected and that the OP is not working to a specification.

 

[Charlie_]

reasonable assumptions based on the information he has given and the huge amount of experience I have in this area..
I have designed and installed many commercial kitchens, the information I have given is very helpful.

 

[simpson93]

thank you all for your advise.

Installer who is connected the equipment has specified socket outlets.

The catering equipment, i belive will be on wheels for cleaning etc.

From all the info i have recieved there seems to be several ways todo this.

I think i will be taking the route of having an inline rcd for each peice of equipment, i would have prefered go put it in the board but it seems the costs for a hager addon rcd is quite expensive £300 a peice.
The rcd socket also seems like a viable option however i wonder if being directly behind equipent would make it less accessible or in the way due to the size, if its further up the line at least more of the cable is protected.

 

[davesparks]

reasonable assumptions based on the information he has given and the huge amount of experience I have in this area..
I have designed and installed many commercial kitchens, the information I have given is very helpful.

I don't think they are reasonable assumptions. No matter how many kitchens you have designed, unless you have seen the design for this kitchen or the specification the OP is working to you can't assume what is required.
Some specifications require socket outlets to be fitted to allow quick replacement of faulty equipment to reduce downtime, removal for deep cleaning or changing the equipment as required.

The majority of my experience of commercial kitchens is for events, so everything is on plugs and sockets. Sometimes this is in fields on generators and sometimes indoors with various three phase outlets provided.

 

[Strima]

I can feel the love in this thread.

I'm currently in negotiations with several major telecoms providers who want socket outlets to power their racks but don't want RCD protection but refuse to do a risk assessment. They are the designers but don't want the responsibility for the risk assessment, rock and a hard place this change to 411.3.3.

I need a beer.

 

[Charlie_]

I’m not disputing the need for a plug and socket only the need for RCD protection..
Up until now equipment in this environment hasn’t needed to be considered for RCD protection..

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Regulations change.
Some of use keep up with the changes, some don’t.
I guess this why we have update courses.

 

[Charlie_]

Regulations change.
Some of use keep up with the changes, some don’t.
I guess this why we have update courses.

Trouble with the courses is they only skim through the regs..
Some of us keep up to date and also know how to apply them accordingly

 

[freddo]

can’t seem to find anything to find a Hager board rcbo etc.

Hager now make compact add on RCD modules, the finished unit takes up 4 modules.

Oops I missed the last 2 pages of replies...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Trouble with the courses is they only skim through the regs..
Some of us keep up to date and also know how to apply them accordingly

The last course I did for the 16th edition, was mostly about how to label up the book and doing past papers.
There was some discussion about particular Regs.
In the main the course was designed to help us pass the exam, not learn the Regs.

One of the reasons I’m a member of this and other forums is to keep my knowledge of the Regs up to date.
I know for a fact that I have mentioned this change in the requirements to provide RCD protection for sockets, as have a number of other members.

As for applying the changed requirements, the solutions are to provide RCD protection, produce or have produced a documented RA which indicates RCD protection is not required, or use a socket rated higher than 32A.

 

[Charlie_]

The last course I did for the 16th edition, was mostly about how to label up the book and doing past papers.
There was some discussion about particular Regs.
In the main the course was designed to help us pass the exam, not learn the Regs.

One of the reasons I’m a member of this and other forums is to keep my knowledge of the Regs up to date.
I know for a fact that I have mentioned this change in the requirements to provide RCD protection for sockets, as have a number of other members.

As for applying the changed requirements, the solutions are to provide RCD protection, produce or have produced a documented RA which indicates RCD protection is not required, or use a socket rated higher than 32A.

We got there in the end