9% increase on gas and elec

[SRE]

Biomass is ok while you can get supply but it's like everything else once demand outstrips supply prices will go through the roof. If current biomass plants approved for planning go through they will need 24 million tonnes of wood to feed them. UK currently produces somewhere in the region of 8 million tonnes. Surplus looks as though it's going to be shipped in from Canada, meanwhile our local sawmill is paying higher and higher prices for wood for joinery etc because the local biomass plant can't get enough to supply it and it's using wood that would normally be used for building things. We have another plant due to kick off in March that's going to need 35 articulated wagons a day to feed it.

I'm not convinced biomass in the future is going to be as cheap as everyone thinks or as sustainable. Only time will tell but I'm not changing my boiler over until I know what the supply situation is going to be like.

 

[sedgy34]

Im not convinced that an air source pump would be cost effective for me to replace a mains gas fired set up, Biomass yes, but space is an issue Im afraid. I have nothing near the house that could house a biomass boiler and hopper feed/store. The nearest outbuilding is some 40 feet from the house - and thats a helluva long run for heating pipes.
So thats partly why the interest in the ImmerSun system. The Gas fired heating system is on during the winter months anyway with spare heat going to the exchanger in the hot water tank, so its really just during summer months that I could do with heating the tank via another means.

You will want solAr thermal then

 

[Worcester]

Or Thermodynamic Solar ASHP and Solar thermal in one! (If he's got any roof space left !! )

 

[MicraShed]

Or Thermodynamic Solar ASHP and Solar thermal in one! (If he's got any roof space left !! )

I have a small (5m x 2.7m) SE facing extension roof but this suffers shade issues and is a long way below the DHW tank. Or I have a NW facing roof some 6m x 5m with no shade issues but NW facing.....

The existing SE facing roof has a 2.5kWp install so Im wondering if swapping the 3kW element in the DHW tank for a 1kW one and installing an ImmerSun might be a cheaper less hassle way forward for the hot water issue. I have a Primatic set up though and my element is top fitting, so a 1kW one isnt going to heat that far down into the tank. Installing a pump would probably disrupt the air bubble in the primatic and I would end up with heating water mixing with tap water (it happens if I set the regular heating pump to position 3, it over pumps the system). That said I need enough hot water for one bath and one dishwasher load a day so not a huge amount and perhaps the amount of water the kW element could heat within the top part of a 145L tank might be enough.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[SRE]

You don't need to change to a 1kw immersion that's the point of the Immersun and surely your dishwasher is cold fill - it's most unusual to have a hot fill.

 

[MicraShed]

Nope, Dish Washer is fed from hot water tap.
Reason being the DHW is set at 55 degrees and the minimum temp of the dishwasher cycle is 60 degrees and I usually use a program that is 78 degrees, so I figured that what the heck, it could feed off the hot water - its been like that for 5 years now with no ill effects.
(gets ready for tales of woe and how Im breeding super bacteria or something!)

 

[langstroth2]

Re Gas use. Install solar hw panels? Helps reduce gas use in summer - although most gas use tends to be CH in Autumn/Winter. Wood stove anyone? If only I'd thought of that when replacing the gas fire some moons ago.

On the dishwasher point - our new Bosch dishwasher specifically said it could be plumped into HW supply rather than cold "to take advantage of a solar system". First time I'd seen that sort of thing mentioned explicitly.

 

[sambotc]

No current renewable technology will replace mains gas.

 

[sedgy34]

No current renewable technology will replace mains gas.

Well in 5 years time they won't be installing mains gas in newbuild houses it's going to be renewables any gas will be LPG

 

[Eco Deal]

I would love a wood burning fire . get rid of all these pallets the solar panels come on and heat my house.

Problem is i have dot a dab walls can they still be installed some how?

 

[sedgy34]

I would love a wood burning fire . get rid of all these pallets the solar panels come on and heat my house.

Problem is i have dot a dab walls can they still be installed some how?

Well I'm going the wood burner route a plumber told me they are only £300 for a 5 kw so cheap as chips really and I would think a dot and dabb wall would be ok as long as the wood burner is fitted correctly

 

[finewine]

Great to see interest in woodburning stoves as part of the whole picture. I run a company that supplies and installs woodburning stoves, both wet and dry. First thing i would say is never buy cheap. There are literally hundreds of cheap chinese stoves available on the internet and i have to say that most are either cheap imitations or making false claims with regards to performance. Buy well known tested products from established shop based companies. Basic cost for a good boiler stove, output around 8kw (6 radiators + hot water) is going to be 1200 pounds and then you need tp think about liner and installation of stove (around 1300 pounds) , suitable plumbing to meet current regs ( 500 to 2000 pounds) and then finally full certification by a hetas engineer who has taken the wet course who can sign off the work. Generally min cost of 3500 and to 5000 or more depending on plumbing work. Hope this helps, Nick

 

[leexgx]

Nope, Dish Washer is fed from hot water tap.
Reason being the DHW is set at 55 degrees and the minimum temp of the dishwasher cycle is 60 degrees and I usually use a program that is 78 degrees, so I figured that what the heck, it could feed off the hot water - its been like that for 5 years now with no ill effects.
(gets ready for tales of woe and how Im breeding super bacteria or something!)

still you should set it to 60c at least, better safe then sorry

your more likely just wasting heat in the pipes with the dishwasher connected to the hot side, by the time its got to the dishwasher or close to it it would of filled the dishwasher up (78c seems bit hot for an dishwasher, Industrial one?)

that's why most dishwashers and washing machines are norm cold only now as they use far less water then older machines, the time it takes to fire up the combi or get the water from the tank to the dishwasher/washing machine the combi would of fired up for no reason or loss of heat in the tank (i may have repeated that an little just more detailed)

 

[sambotc]

Well in 5 years time they won't be installing mains gas in newbuild houses it's going to be renewables any gas will be LPG

Believe that when you see it, just like the RHI that was supposed to start in 2010.

Happy to discuss tomorrow when i've not had a few, but the figures don't add up for anything else.

On the wood burning subject just remember to consider smoke free zones which will mean that most built up areas will not permit you to burn a lot of wood's and other smokey fuels.

RHI will not be available for any of the renewable technologies with the exception of solar thermal if you have a mains gas supply. Currently solar thermal does not pay back well for a domestic property on mains gas, usually 30+ year payback rates.

Like it or not, gas is still the best option for many both economically and environmentally.

 

[leexgx]

will we have gas for that long

 

[dansk]

i thought new build to code 6 wont have a mains gas supply, im sure its coming, but so is christmas.

 

[MicraShed]

your more likely just wasting heat in the pipes with the dishwasher connected to the hot side, by the time its got to the dishwasher or close to it it would of filled the dishwasher up (78c seems bit hot for an dishwasher, Industrial one?)

Ahh, but you are not taking into account the fact Im ---- enough to run the hot water tap till it comes warm, then switch the dishwasher on.... My reasoning is I have a tankful of hot water, so why pay any more electricity to heat up cold water when I can supply 55 degree (ish) water to the dishwasher so it only needs to heat it up another 20 degrees as opposed to a full 60 degrees plus.
Its a Miele, and Im lying - its 76 degrees for the pots and pans cycle.

 

[sambotc]

Code 6 houses should almost eliminate the need for heating completely but there is a lot of work to do in 4 years for that to become the norm. I would imagine some form of electric will be used for supplementary heating when required and hot water which, unless produced entirely from a renewable technology, will produce over twice the amount of co2 per kwh compared to burning gas.

For the rest of the population in an existing property with a mains supply, there's nothing currently available worth swapping too.

 

[SRE]

Ahh, but you are not taking into account the fact Im ---- enough to run the hot water tap till it comes warm, then switch the dishwasher on.... My reasoning is I have a tankful of hot water, so why pay any more electricity to heat up cold water when I can supply 55 degree (ish) water to the dishwasher so it only needs to heat it up another 20 degrees as opposed to a full 60 degrees plus.
Its a Miele, and Im lying - its 76 degrees for the pots and pans cycle.

Of course if you had an energy management system you wouldn't be paying for all that hot water to sit there in the first place ;-)

 

[moggy1968]

the lack of air circulation in these new houses bothers me, I can't see such a lack of air being healthy