ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[Danspark]

D Skelton

ELECSA is a competent person scheme for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling!


“I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector.” No it doesn’t. that is how you see it. Sorry D Skelton, You ARE a domestic installer. (you can still do work in the commercial and industrial sector, you simply haven't joined a voluptuary regulatory body ie: as a NICEIC's approved contractor) That is why you signed up to ELECSA’s competent person scheme. You are very attached to to the approved contractor status that was given to you by the ELECSA. But now that you are on a list that has other accreditations for other electrical companies it makes sense that your approval by elecsa is not to be confused with an existing accreditation that you are NOT! anyways, why be attached to such a “made up name” by a company that you detest? why not try some other made up names, hows about; accepted contractor, agreed contractor, standard contractor, established contractor, confirmed contractor, acknowledged contractor, recognized contractor, sanctioned contractor agreed contractor...


*assumption made that a difference in opinion is ok? I know how passionate you can be

 

[Danspark]

Thought I'd try some emoticons to try and get ezzekiel's interest back up. (ill stick some at the bottom too)

resents1: :93: :drool5:


Des 56


“The QS system has been made the basis for Niceic companies to operate in the Domestic sector
A sole trader domestic installer is deemed to be the Qualifying supervisor of his own company,he is accepted into the Niceic with the bare minimum or sometimes no electrical qualification, other than perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations” Qualified Supervisor: The minimum technical qualification required is City and Guilds 2382 level or equivalent - Where the proposed Qualified Supervisor does not hold the required qualification, the business will be registered with Conditional Registration. It is a requirement of Conditional Registration that the Qualified Supervisor obtains the qualification and provides evidence to NICEIC Head Office within 12 months of the date of registration. It is the Government that have relaxed the requirement for the proposed Qualified Supervisor to hold the technical qualification before registration is granted to the business! However, NICEIC believes that without a relevant qualification it is unlikely the proposed Qualified Supervisor will be able to demonstrate the required level of competence at the assessment visit.


“So we have many enterprises with a QS and very little if any electrical training,” If he has no or very little training how does he then demonstrate competence in domestic electrical installations and that the design is appropriate and they are competently installed in accordance with BS 7671: 2008. The ability to inspect and test domestic electrical installation work including a check to confirm that other appropriate parts of the Building Regulations are being adhered to. In addition he must be directly engaged in domestic electrical installation work and have experience of completing this type of work for 12 months. I trust you are not belittling the skills required to demonstrating this!

“perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations” and IEE On-site Guide, Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 and Approved Document P.


Most of your other comments are nothing more than propaganda! (this one in bold means im shouting at you)


I now want to take your attention back to my original posting. “Part P was the best thing to happen to the industry” why... BECAUSE THINGS HAVE IMPROVED! Today I went to install 4 spots in a bathroom ceiling, this was requested by a plumber that 7 years ago would have done it himself. I did it, and the customer seemed happy knowing (for reasons he doesn’t understand) that a 6mm earth cable bonding his incoming gas and water services have been removed and that a 10mm earth cable installed. He was very pleased. he even has just the folder to put the certificate in. Has any one experienced a situation where someone has stated “i would never have touched the electrics, but now that it would be illegal to do so I think i’ll hive it ago”? no... so, THINGS HAVE IMPROVED! no matter how small.


I have never suggested that Part P is perfect, far from it. I want it to be amended sensibly, I want non registered companies to be forced into compliance. I want more enforcement from local authorities regarding non compliance and more publicity from the government!



:90: :41: :74:

still with us ezzekiel?

 

[Geoffsd]

the customer seemed happy knowing (for reasons he doesn’t understand) that a 6mm earth cable bonding his incoming gas and water services have been removed and that a 10mm earth cable installed.

It's not earth cable.

Was it necessary?

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Probably best you don't threaten legal action with an email that is libelous itself (you can't go around calling companies "corporate scamsters"), really you can't.

As for your "pay grade" quip, what did you expect to get from that?

Additional:-

Take a breath and write down on paper on what it means to your company and what the knock-on effects are, I'd then put that in an "emotion free" email and send it to the CEO of Elecsa. Your have much more chance of changing something getting under his / her hooter than insulting some poor bint on the front-line.

If that doesn't work, walk with your wallet!

Elecsa have now replied to my original message. Do have a read below :



Dear Mr Skelton,

Thank you for your email and for the valid points that you have raised. ELECSA is pleased to be part of the Electrical Safety Register and see this as an important first step to joining up the industry. As such the creation of the Electrical Safety Register website is just the first step in communicating to all consumers, clients and specifiers of the value of using registered contractors. It will continue to develop and evolve as the promotion of the Register gets underway. There are many changes that will be made to the website as a result of feedback received since making the site live and in particular your points about how contractors are presented will be an important part of those changes. What I can't assure you of at this time is exactly when these changes will be made however, all future developments and improvements to the Electrical Safety Register will be communicated to all ELECSA contractors via the usual communication channels (email, website and SPARK).

At ELECSA we do value all of our contractors and do strive to provide a high level of customer service and this attention to our contractors needs will continue. I am sorry if you feel that we have not satisfactorily maintained these standards whilst we were establishing the partnership that has created the Electrical Safety Register but I can assure you that all feedback received is being put into the future development plans of the register for the benefit of all of our contractors.

Kindest regards,

*** ***



Now the response I sent today to that rubbish:




Dear ***

This is simply not good enough! I deserve more than just a generic copied and pasted response to a highly important enquiry!

Begrudgingly I pay silly amounts of money every year to a scheme that does absolutely nothing for me, we as electrical contractors all know the con that is the requirement under Part P to sign up to corporate scamsters like yourselves but that argument is for another day! The very least you could have done, considering the sheer amount of MY money that I unwillingly hand over to you each year, would have been to consult your customers, ie. me! But where was this consultation? Where was my say in how you choose to let me be represented?

You talk of many changes being made as a result of feedback recieved, but is this just another way of saying "Yeah yeah, we'll pretend we're listening", and then dumping my concerns down the memory hole?

I made my concerns very clear in my first email to Elecsa, these concerns are that your decision to let the NICEIC handle our details is now going to affect my business! It is affecting my business as I write this! Something which you have claimed numurous times will not happen. Letting my business be defined as a 'Domestic Installer' cannot and will not continue!

I don't wish to hear weak excuses for your actions. I don't wish to hear "Yeah we'll get round to sorting something out at some point but who knows when?". If these matters are not addressed NOW, I will be considering taking legal advice.

Ms ***, I mean this with no disrespect but if these matters are above your pay grade, I would advise you to forward both my emails on to someone who can actually enter into some form of dialogue with me regarding these matters.

Kind regards,

 

[D Skelton]

ELECSA is a competent person scheme for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling!

No, ELECSA is a government recognised self certification scheme for approval of electricians under Part P of the Building Regulations to self certify their work in domestic dwellings.

“I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector.” No it doesn’t. that is how you see it.

Yes it does! It is very clearly implied to anyone who doesn't have any knowledge of Part P or Building Regulations.

Sorry D Skelton, You ARE a domestic installer.

No I'm not, I'm approved by a government recognised scheme to self certify work in domestic dwellings.

(you can still do work in the commercial and industrial sector, you simply haven't joined a voluptuary regulatory body ie: as a NICEIC's approved contractor) That is why you signed up to ELECSA’s competent person scheme. You are very attached to to the approved contractor status that was given to you by the ELECSA. But now that you are on a list that has other accreditations for other electrical companies it makes sense that your approval by elecsa is not to be confused with an existing accreditation that you are NOT!

I am approved by a government recognised scheme (ELECSA) to self certify work in domestic dwellings. Therefore I am an ELECSA approved contractor. If you were approved by the NIC to self certify work in domestic dwellings, whether or not they choose to brand you a 'Domestic Installer', you are still an NICEIC approved contractor under Part P of the BRs!

anyways, why be attached to such a “made up name” by a company that you detest? why not try some other made up names, hows about; accepted contractor, agreed contractor, standard contractor, established contractor, confirmed contractor, acknowledged contractor, recognized contractor, sanctioned contractor agreed contractor...

If they want to call me any of the above, I couldn't give a hoot, because none of those imply in the slightest that I only carry out domestic electrical installation work. It's as simple as that!

 

[MDJ]

"you are still an NICEIC approved contractor!" you cannot have the words approved contractor on your van if you only join the NICEIC DI scheme though fella , thats my only point, otherwise I have no issues with your comments at all and applaud your disgust at elecsa.

 

[D Skelton]

Probably best you don't threaten legal action with an email that is libelous itself (you can't go around calling companies "corporate scamsters"), really you can't.

For my statement to be libelous, Elecsa must be able to prove that my statement was false. Then they must be able to prove that the statement caused harm. Then they must be able to prove that the statement was made without any research into the truthfulness of the statement. Finally, they must be able to prove that the statement was made with the intent to do their organisation harm or with reckless disregard for the truth.

I doubt they can do any of those things, so Elecsa can shove it!

As for your "pay grade" quip, what did you expect to get from that?

Upon receipt of a copied and pasted email as an answer to my enquiry, my assumption was that she either couldn't or wouldn't answer my questions.

If that doesn't work, walk with your wallet!

This is under serious consideration!

 

[D Skelton]

"you are still an NICEIC approved contractor!" you cannot have the words approved contractor on your van if you only join the NICEIC DI scheme though fella , thats my only point, otherwise I have no issues with your comments at all and applaud your disgust at elecsa.

As much as the NIC wouldn't like it, you would be liable to no criminal or civil proceedings as the statement is technically true! This is my only point.

You'd probably be chucked out of the club for it though.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Thought I'd try some emoticons to try and get ezzekiel's interest back up. (ill stick some at the bottom too)

resents1: :93: :drool5:


:41: :74:

still with us ezzekiel?

ha your funny

yes still reading with interest, both agree and disagree with a lot of points raised by everyone, but to me the point still stands that there is room for a lot of improvement but it seems that no one wishes to listen, all i keep hearing is after consulation/ long talks/ negotiation WITH WHO?
The principal idea for scheme membership (along lines of gas safe) is what is needed, and that is all.

yearly inspections, why? do you get worse over the course of a year .

 

[Geoffsd]

"you are still an NICEIC approved contractor!" you cannot have the words approved contractor on your van if you only join the NICEIC DI scheme though fella , thats my only point, otherwise I have no issues with your comments at all and applaud your disgust at elecsa.

Which is not the case with ELECSA.

The basis and whole point of the complaint.

 

[MDJ]

yep I know fella and am not trying to in anyway suggest your wrong, I appreciate your complaint, it's all very ridiculous and messy and the whole thing a joke, a bit like all the scams really.

 

[rattlehead85]

All this Di and AC schemes set up by the NiC are just a tool to extract even more money from their own members. I originally held a DI scheme reg as most of my work was Domestic council. As my main roll was periodic inspection and reporting i was advised to pay for an extension to my scope to include what they classified as DPIR reg which i have in black and white from them. I payed for an upgrade to EICR extension in January only to be told that they would not include this on my DI reg. I would have to pay for an AC status to be able to continue carrying out EiCR's on domestic properties. I payed the 400 quid and when i was inspected they did exactly the same inspection as in the yearly DI assessment. So overnight i became incompetent to continue completing EICR and domestic testing unless i payed 400 quid. A joke!! Joe blogs Bulgarian spark pays a one off fee of 450 for a AC reg, he can't tell one scale setting from the next on a multitester and gets his mate to fill out his certs for him. So just shows you how bothered the NIC are about what goes on once they have fleeced the money out of you and just goes to show what a farce this register is!!

 

[MDJ]

one thing I will say though, to have NICEIC approved Contractor accredation isn't pee easy IMO, to get in you need to show 5 jobs which are certified without any errors at alland been trading for a certain period of time, and part of the process is to prove you can carry out the full range of tests under the engineer's watching eye, that is pretty stressful as well and more involved than the DI scheme, there is more as well to it, I'm not saying it isn't straight forward for competent sparks with knowledge, but paying the 450 won't get you approved status alone, I have to admit it isn't like it was and the scheme has lost merit but not just any old joe can get in, thats my view and I won't stick my hard hat on as I know I'm right this time.

 

[AP Electrical]

The way I now see it is as simply a business tool, ill go with whichever scam has more exposure to the public and at the end of the year just run it through with every other expense I have. These scams are all the same money orientated. The last communication I received from elecsa was a notice to inform me the cost of notifications was going up, these are the guys I'd just paid another £450ish to... Why don't they use that instead of increasing my costs? I don't see anything but a yearly inspection for that money as it is anyway......

 

[rattlehead85]

Well i beg to differ on that one. Both myself and two other sparks i know who went AC only were asked for two jobs (both were fine as domestic jobs) and asked to perform a basic r1+r2 test and an RCD test followed by a quick check of publication ownership. And this was by different area engineers may i add. Ok i can understand to a certain extent for me as i have full qualis and had ownership of a DI for a lengthy period but one of the others had 4 months experience out of college post completion of a part P course. He got the AC as easy as me and yet time served sparks on other schemes get downgraded. And give me a good reason why one day an extension to scope is encouraged and overnight all of a sudden you aint competent in the area you have been assessed on and given the scope for. For one reason only.... extract more money or lose custom from disappearing of the register which is now rammed down customers throats!

 

[MDJ]

well we will have to agree to disagree then fella, I'm only talking about the approved contractor scheme, the DI scheme is a different matter, I respect your views though of course.

Mike

 

[Danspark]

It's not earth cable.

Is it not? while it is on the drum it is My earth cable, who says its not going to be used to connect an exposed conductive part of an installation to the main earthing terminal of the installation? known as EARTHING (go check the definitions section of the green book (the one with "requirements for electrical installations written on the front") "Go to the van and get my bonding conductor" doesn't roll of my tongue very well! Note: after I described MY earthing cable i correctly used the term bonding incoming gas and water!

Was it necessary?

What are you suggesting? go read regulation 544.1.1 and look at table 54.8!

No, ELECSA is a government recognised self certification scheme for approval of electricians under Part P of the Building Regulations to self certify their work in domestic dwellings.

ELECSA runs one of the fastest growing Competent Persons Schemes (CPS) in the UK and is a significant point of contact for any householder who is planning to undertake major electrical work in their homes or gardens. (taken from your chosen competent persons scheme's website)
​

No I'm not, I'm approved by a government recognised scheme to self certify work in domestic dwellings.​

You were approved by them! you were also
accepted, agreed, confirmed, acknowledged, recognised and sanctioned (possibly should a been sectioned ) But if you are in any doubt, go check the electrical safety register, It clearly states you are a domestic installer.

​

you are​

still

an NICEIC approved contractor under Part P of the BRs​

only if you are an approved contractor with domestic installation accreditation, other than that you are approved/acknowledged/recognised as a domestic installer.

domestic installer, domestic installer, domestic installer domestic installer, domestic installer (assuming we're now friends)

ps, my first attempt with multiple quotes. Hope it works

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"you are still an NICEIC approved contractor!" you cannot have the words approved contractor on your van if you only join the NICEIC DI scheme though fella , thats my only point, otherwise I have no issues with your comments at all and applaud your disgust at elecsa.

but at the same time mike.....
i think the issue here is about how can someone be an `approved contractor`..... `approved` by who for a start....the NIC`s golden rules...?.....and whats this `domestic installer` all about?.....sounds like someone who fits windows n doors for christs sake....
if someone is fit for one job.....they should be fit for`t other n all.......
5 week course anyone?....lolffs...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

dan dan the NICelecsanapit man.....lol....
wake up will ya.....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Is it not? while it is on the drum it is My earth cable, who says its not going to be used to connect an exposed conductive part of an installation to the main earthing terminal of the installation? known as EARTHING (go check the definitions section of the green book (the one with "requirements for electrical installations written on the front") "Go to the van and get my bonding conductor" doesn't roll of my tongue very well! Note: after I described MY earthing cable i correctly used the term bonding incoming gas and water!


What are you suggesting? go read regulation 544.1.1 and look at table 54.8!

ELECSA runs one of the fastest growing Competent Persons Schemes (CPS) in the UK and is a significant point of contact for any householder who is planning to undertake major electrical work in their homes or gardens. (taken from your chosen competent persons scheme's website)
​

You were approved by them! you were also
accepted, agreed, confirmed, acknowledged, recognised and sanctioned (possibly should a been sectioned ) But if you are in any doubt, go check the electrical safety register, It clearly states you are a domestic installer.

​

only if you are an approved contractor with domestic installation accreditation, other than that you are approved/acknowledged/recognised as a domestic installer.

domestic installer, domestic installer, domestic installer domestic installer, domestic installer (assuming we're now friends)

ps, my first attempt with multiple quotes. Hope it works

oye....dummy.....yep you...
so when did a roll of G/Y become either earthin or bonding conductor.....when still on the drum eh?.....