Advice on working on site - ltd/umbrella and Insurance

[RDB85]

So I have seen a few jobs, that say you must be either Ltd or Umbrella and also have insurance. If anyone could give me advice on the best way to go about setting up that would be great.

 

[SparkyChick]

If you don't want the headache of running a limited company then Google 'umbrella company'. These typically take a cut for providing you with payroll services etc.

For a limited company, there are lots of formation companies out there who will do all the paperwork for you, but if you're going down this route find a local accountant as you'll need one and they may also offer a formation service.

Insurance wise, the insurance required will be dictated by the people you are working for. For me I have public liability, employers liability, professional indemnity and a bunch of other bits and pieces covering tools, goods in transit, cash in transit etc.

 

[telectrix]

my tools, goods, and cash in transit (no it's a toyota) are covered by a baseball bat under the driver's seat. . (emojis just because SC likes pink (NOT).

 

[RDB85]

Thanks for that. I’m just a bit confused as to why some of the jobs require you to be either ltd or umbrella, then expect you to have your own insurance IPAF, PASMA etc. I always assumed a Mate was there to observe and then help as Labourer.

With me currently not working and it proving difficult to even get a min wage job, it’s becoming rather annoying. Also the fact of no experience is not helping with the electrical. Seems a lot of money to spend, plus some of the jobs are a few weeks or a month or two. If it was a year then I could see the point. Also 400 electrical companies and not one response. It’s no wonder the industry is on its arse, when people who just want to start, learn whilst studying.

 

[Rpa07]

It’s the zero hours mentality of modern working. They do all this to shift any allegiance or blame away from them. It works both ways so you also have no allegiance to them and can walk if you don’t like the distance or the site or the bosses.
I agree it does not help when you are starting out but once you get your foot in with an agency and they know you are reliable then the weekly wage will start to come in and you can pay back those courses and other fees that you forked out for.
I don’t agree that you should have insurances when working for someone on their site, they will have all the Insurance’s to cover you.

 

[RDB85]

It’s the zero hours mentality of modern working. They do all this to shift any allegiance or blame away from them. It works both ways so you also have no allegiance to them and can walk if you don’t like the distance or the site or the bosses.
I agree it does not help when you are starting out but once you get your foot in with an agency and they know you are reliable then the weekly wage will start to come in and you can pay back those courses and other fees that you forked out for.
I don’t agree that you should have insurances when working for someone on their site, they will have all the Insurance’s to cover you.

It’s getting the foot in the door that I’m finding impossible. Without any experience no one seems to care. Even though they’ve been there when they were someone’s apprentice. I don’t agree when working for someone on their site you should have your own insurance.

I got send a job that was 9 months work or more. They wanted me to be either ltd or self employed, have a UTR number, own PL and PI insurance, own tools and use my car. But the job was due to start the next day. Working as a Mate. Bit much don’t you think? Needless to say the job went.

 

[Baddegg]

Don’t see why you’d need PI insurance as a mate? Or PL for that matter....but their job their rules, you should have a utr number set up already if this is the route you’re taking for work,same goes for tools and transport, and PL and PI take 10 mins to set up on line and shouldn’t cost more than £30-£35 a month, In your shoes I’d have taken the job mate and not looked back, the employer would also have been impressed with you starting at such short notice.

 

[RDB85]

Don’t see why you’d need PI insurance as a mate? Or PL for that matter....but their job their rules, you should have a utr number set up already if this is the route you’re taking for work,same goes for tools and transport, and PL and PI take 10 mins to set up on line and shouldn’t cost more than £30-£35 a month, In your shoes I’d have taken the job mate and not looked back, the employer would also have been impressed with you starting at such short notice.

I would of taken the job, but then they wanted all of that setup before hand. Which I was only told a few hours before. So it wasn’t enough time to do it. But apparently it had been filled whilst I was on the phone.

Plus to get a UTR number takes a few weeks apparently. I’ve spoken to the fella about site work before as he had one in November but I didn’t have my ECS Card. But he failed to mention any of the other information. As I’ve only ever worked full time for a company. Would of been handy to know before hand.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This is all to do with bogus self employment.
You can’t be self employed if your work is supervised.
So you either get taken on the cards direct by a company, or if working through agencies, get paid by Umbrella or become a Ltd. Co.
If you get paid be Umbrella, you employ yourself and you as the employee pay tax and National insurance, and then as the employer, pay the employer’s national insurance.
Because you’re not employed by the Contractor, the Agency or the Pay Roll company, you are not covered by their insurances.
Some Pay Roll companies include insurance in with their fees.
If you become Ltd. then your Ltd. Co. has to pay you and how you get paid is up to you and your accountant.
The Agency should pay your Ltd. Co. direct less the 20% CIS.
A lot of agencies now insist your Ltd. Co. gets paid via a Pay Roll company which will charge a fee.
Again, because no one is employing you, you are not covered by anyone’s insurance.

Your best bet is to be taken on direct by a company, or become a Ltd Co.

 

[RDB85]

This is all to do with bogus self employment.
You can’t be self employed if your work is supervised.
So you either get taken on the cards direct by a company, or if working through agencies, get paid by Umbrella or become a Ltd. Co.
If you get paid be Umbrella, you employ yourself and you as the employee pay tax and National insurance, and then as the employer, pay the employer’s national insurance.
Because you’re not employed by the Contractor, the Agency or the Pay Roll company, you are not covered by their insurances.
Some Pay Roll companies include insurance in with their fees.
If you become Ltd. then your Ltd. Co. has to pay you and how you get paid is up to you and your accountant.
The Agency should pay your Ltd. Co. direct less the 20% CIS.
A lot of agencies now insist your Ltd. Co. gets paid via a Pay Roll company which will charge a fee.
Again, because no one is employing you, you are not covered by anyone’s insurance.

Your best bet is to be taken on direct by a company, or become a Ltd Co.

Thanks for that, it’s more clear, that I am best setting myself up as a Ltd Company. For the PL PI etc what should I be looking at costs wise as I’ve seen PL go up to £10 million and PI upto £5 million they are over a £100 a month. But then again companies are not telling me exactly where I’m working, just it’s onsite.

Ideally I would rather be taken on by a company, but with no experience they don’t want to know. Good news is I’m starting my Level 3 next month. I’m glad I prepaid that along with my Level 2 last year.

 

[Toneyz]

The insurance you get will depend upon the type of work you are undertaking.

 

[RDB85]

The insurance you get will depend upon the type of work you are undertaking.

That is true. But again they never have told me what type of work, it is, so I am not going to get insurance for £100 odd pound a month, which I don't have as I'm not working at the moment. They are not very helpful these agencies, just say you need your own insurance. Hence why I WOULD rather be taken on by a company.

 

[RDB85]

So I have done a quote with AXA Insurance: £43 a month:

Public Liability: £5M
Legal expenses
Professional Indemnity
Employers' Liability: £10M

The only others I am not sure on is Contacts Works:
If any of your work on a site is destroyed or damaged whilst you are on a job, you could lose the cost of any labour, materials and tools, not to mention work you’ve already completed. But with this, you'll be covered and can get back up and running to where you were just before the damage happened. up to £500,000 for £89.98.

Also, Employers' Liability which I am not sure I need being self-employed. As its just myself.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You shouldn’t need PI as you won’t be giving anyone advice.
To be honest you shouldn’t need PL, as you’l be supervised and being told what to do.
That being said, it’s the PL that the agencies want you to have.
I don’t know about contact works insurance.

 

[Squid]

For insurance purposes as a Ltd Co I used Hiscox, Umbrella shysters will screw you as it works out the same as being PAYE, HMRC are also clamping down, being Limited Co means there are "various" things you can claim for, one year I claimed for the Christmas tree against expenses that was erected in my office at home...........

Speak to an accountant oh and Limited Co is only worth it when you are earning decent money.

 

[Toneyz]

I think the HMRC have tightened up over the years that it doesn't matter which way we all seem to pay the same in.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

At the end of March 2014 I started work for a company called Phoenix Electrical, via an Agency called BMSL and I was being paid through a Pay Roll company called Fairgate.
At that time the pay was £15 per hour, paid 45 hours a week.
This increased to £16 per hour after about 4 weeks.

I had never worked for Phoenix before, had only worked via BMSL for a week in the past, but had been using Fairgate for some time and already had a contract with them to be paid CIS.
My first weeks money was paid to me on the 17th of April, and I immediately rang Fairgate to find out why I had been under paid.
I should have been paid £523.84 after paying the Pay Roll fee and CIS tax.
Instead I was paid £488.02, nearly £36 less than I was expecting.

I had already been working there for just over 2 weeks by the time I received the payment advice.
I then wasted a few weeks trying to sort it out.
In the end it took 14 weeks before I started somewhere else via an Agency that would pay me CIS.

I worked out, that over those 14 weeks, I was down just over £2,000.
That’s based on £15-£16 per hour, and includes some weekend work which was paid at a higher rate.

Rates are better now, £22-£25 per hour, so I’d probably be down about £3,000 over 14 weeks.

At that time, I should have been able to claim for my expenses on a weekly basis. Travel, subsistence, laundry, mobile phone, etc.
I understand now, that HMRC have blocked the payment of weekly expenses?

Claiming for the expenses at the end of the year would result in lower tax, but both the empoyee’s and employer’s NI is also based on earnings.

Trying to get a refund on over paid NI is a nightmare, and where would the employer’s NI be refunded to?

As far as I can see, going Ltd and paying an accountant even £1,000 per year would save money over being paid umbrella.

 

[RDB85]

At the end of March 2014 I started work for a company called Phoenix Electrical, via an Agency called BMSL and I was being paid through a Pay Roll company called Fairgate.
At that time the pay was £15 per hour, paid 45 hours a week.
This increased to £16 per hour after about 4 weeks.

I had never worked for Phoenix before, had only worked via BMSL for a week in the past, but had been using Fairgate for some time and already had a contract with them to be paid CIS.
My first weeks money was paid to me on the 17th of April, and I immediately rang Fairgate to find out why I had been under paid.
I should have been paid £523.84 after paying the Pay Roll fee and CIS tax.
Instead I was paid £488.02, nearly £36 less than I was expecting.

I had already been working there for just over 2 weeks by the time I received the payment advice.
I then wasted a few weeks trying to sort it out.
In the end it took 14 weeks before I started somewhere else via an Agency that would pay me CIS.

I worked out, that over those 14 weeks, I was down just over £2,000.
That’s based on £15-£16 per hour, and includes some weekend work which was paid at a higher rate.

Rates are better now, £22-£25 per hour, so I’d probably be down about £3,000 over 14 weeks.

At that time, I should have been able to claim for my expenses on a weekly basis. Travel, subsistence, laundry, mobile phone, etc.
I understand now, that HMRC have blocked the payment of weekly expenses?

Claiming for the expenses at the end of the year would result in lower tax, but both the empoyee’s and employer’s NI is also based on earnings.

Trying to get a refund on over paid NI is a nightmare, and where would the employer’s NI be refunded to?

As far as I can see, going Ltd and paying an accountant even £1,000 per year would save money over being paid umbrella.

I think your right about Ltd over Umbrella. It seems like more work, but works out in the long run.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I’ve never done Umbrella since and won’t in the future.
The £2,000 I was down, I just put down as Tax already paid on my Self Assessment.
Oh yes, I never received either a P45 or P60, so don’t actually know what was done with the money deducted from me.

 

[RDB85]

I’ve never done Umbrella since and won’t in the future.
The £2,000 I was down, I just put down as Tax already paid on my Self Assessment.
Oh yes, I never received either a P45 or P60, so don’t actually know what was done with the money deducted from me.

That’s horrible that. I don’t think I will bother with Umbrella. I will see if I can get some advice from my Aunt as she used to be an accountant. I also think Axa seems to be okay for insurance, but I’m open to suggestions from others on here.