Any Point in Domestic Installer course or any electrical training at 41 in 2022?

[aliensbrains]

As the title says. I'm really battling with figuring out the best route to electrical training (College level 2/3 v's DI), and to be honest - even though I'm really keen, I'm starting to get a bit disillusioned with the whole thing.

I'm in a technical job currently and 41 so apprenticeship is probably not really for me. Really would like to go down the sole trader route at some point but in no hurry. Only really interested in domestic work and would be interested in EV charge/solar and testing eventually (if I can get CPS registered).

On paper the domestic installer route seems perfect to someone like me but I'm only hearing negative things about that route and domestic installers generally.

Since the changes in 2021, it seems it's more difficult to get the DI with less courses accepted as minimum for CPS - but has the damage been done to the DI reputation and is there no real way in for someone my age/in my position?

Or am I reading this wrong and there is a way forward that I'm not seeing?

 

[Dustydazzler]

I am not sure but the only real way to get into a DI approved Scam is via a recognised Nvq apprentice scheme

There used to a be a back to method via 'time served' which some Scams would accept if you didn't hold a modern Nvq , but that appears to be closed now

 

[philectrical]

I am not sure but the only real way to get into a DI approved Scam is via a recognised Nvq apprentice scheme

There used to a be a back to method via 'time served' which some Scams would accept if you didn't hold a modern Nvq , but that appears to be closed now

Just an FYI that you can do an NVQ without doing an apprenticeship, the Experience Worker Route is a way.

There's also the way of just getting competent and then not registering with a scam. By all accounts lots of local authorities won't even let you notify them as they don't care so doing quality work but explaining they'll need an EICR if they come to sell might be a way forward as much as it will be frowned upon by some.

IMO OP, don't bother with college, it's too big a time sink and you really won't learn anything of real practical value - running in lighting circuits on a 2m x 2m board isn't reflective of real life and the theory can be learned on your own.

I ditched college and went with the 'mates' route and i'm on more money than some qualified sparks now, and learning as i go on the job under someone more knowledgeable than me.

 

[aliensbrains]

I am not sure but the only real way to get into a DI approved Scam is via a recognised Nvq apprentice scheme

There used to a be a back to method via 'time served' which some Scams would accept if you didn't hold a modern Nvq , but that appears to be closed now

Pretty sure the course I've seen locally gives the minimum qualifications to get on a DI approved 'scam' :
LCL Awards Level 3 - Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installations in Dwellings
City & Guilds 2382-22 - Level 3 18th Edition Wiring Regulations
City & Guilds 2391-50 - Level 3 Inspection & Testing - Initial Verification

I rang NIC EIC and they said they confirmed it is enough. But you do obviously need the insurance, docs, portfolio of work and an assessment after 2 years working - presumably on minor works and using building control for notifiable works.

The training provider is also offering City & Guilds 2391-51 Periodic Inspection and Testing course and the City & Guilds 2919-01 Electric Vehicle charging course for a bit more dollar - but not sure if any of it is worth bothering with after what I'm reading about these sorts of courses?!

 

[aliensbrains]

Just an FYI that you can do an NVQ without doing an apprenticeship, the Experience Worker Route is a way.

There's also the way of just getting competent and then not registering with a scam. By all accounts lots of local authorities won't even let you notify them as they don't care so doing quality work but explaining they'll need an EICR if they come to sell might be a way forward as much as it will be frowned upon by some.

IMO OP, don't bother with college, it's too big a time sink and you really won't learn anything of real practical value - running in lighting circuits on a 2m x 2m board isn't reflective of real life and the theory can be learned on your own.

I ditched college and went with the 'mates' route and i'm on more money than some qualified sparks now, and learning as i go on the job under someone more knowledgeable than me.

Thanks, that's a different perspective than I've heard so far. The advantage with the course I've seen is that it's only Sept - April so time isn't the issue really - I'm more worried that I'd just be chucking my money away and wouldn't be able to pick up any work afterwards. As that's the impression I'm getting about domestic installers

Wondering if lots of people are just judging the domestic installer thing on what has happened before 2021 and are not fully up to speed on the changes

 

[telectrix]

problem is to obtain NVQ you need to be working in the industry and able to prepare a prortfolio of works done by yourself. loads of ttext and photos.

 

[aliensbrains]

problem is to obtain NVQ you need to be working in the industry and able to prepare a prortfolio of works done by yourself. loads of ttext and photos.

Yeah, which is making me think the college NVQ route isn't for me either. So I'm left with DI - but I only ever see bad things written about DI route (possibly due to outdated knowledge?) - so leaves me thinking there's no way in.

I think the NIC EIC, DI qualified supervisor scheme you need the quals above plus specifications, certificates, competence records and complaints for 2 years (plus insurance and all the other stuff). I think (but not sure) for the DI scheme they only assess one job? Might be wrong on that.

 

[philectrical]

Thanks, that's a different perspective than I've heard so far. The advantage with the course I've seen is that it's only Sept - April so time isn't the issue really - I'm more worried that I'd just be chucking my money away and wouldn't be able to pick up any work afterwards. As that's the impression I'm getting about domestic installers

Wondering if lots of people are just judging the domestic installer thing on what has happened before 2021 and are not fully up to speed on the changes

You can't do level 3 without level 2 so i'd look into that, unless it's a fast track course then it would take 2 years minimum.

Basically if you can do the work, you'll find people will take you on whether you've got qualifications or not. If you have the quals but can't really do anything, nobody is going to hire you.

I'd concentrate on getting the knowledge together and the 18th edition/ECS card and going from there. But that's just me personally.

 

[aliensbrains]

You can't do level 3 without level 2 so i'd look into that, unless it's a fast track course then it would take 2 years minimum.

Basically if you can do the work, you'll find people will take you on whether you've got qualifications or not. If you have the quals but can't really do anything, nobody is going to hire you.

I'd concentrate on getting the knowledge together and the 18th edition/ECS card and going from there. But that's just me personally.

Only things I'd say here are that I'm primarily interested in domestic work and the course I've listed above doesn't require level 2 as an entry requirement.

Good point on the quals/no quals it is more important that you can do the work... I'm really looking at becoming a sole trader, probably part time initially, so it's not so much about people taking me on as being (and being able to prove I'm) competent and confident enough to do the work (minor works and a few basic notifiable works at first) . I think that qualifications help with that, although are obviously secondary to experience.

 

[philectrical]

Also bear in mind that there's no such thing as a 'domestic installer' qualification - you would be as qualified to take on work as you are right now after taking it. C&G Level 3 doesn't give you any extra leverage to install domestically either. The only 'recognised' qualifications are 18th, testing and inspection, and the NVQ.

Every other qualification except those three basically means nothing except to the person holding them. Legally speaking you don't need any qualifications to do electrical work of any kind and the level 3 C&G for example doesn't give you access to any accreditation or jobs that just not having it doesn't already give you.

Some employers might see it as giving you competence but really you can do some learning on your own from the book and then go it alone and you'll be technically as qualified as if you'd have taken a course.

The top and bottom of it is this:

No qualifications - can do any electrical work, might struggle to get on big sites as people might see you as unqualified.
C&G 3 - as above.
18th + Testing and Inspection + NVQ - as above except people now see you as qualified and competent.

So essentially the only thing stopping you from getting into the game isn't qualifications it's just knowledge and experience, both of which a course won't give you. You need to be on site. So work out how to get on site.

 

[philectrical]

Only things I'd say here are that I'm primarily interested in domestic work and the course I've listed above doesn't require level 2 as an entry requirement.

The course is a scam then because C&G won't let you do level 3 without level 2.

You either have to go Level 2 -> Level 3 or go the experienced worker route where you need neither and can go straight to the NVQ.

EDIT: scrap that, i just saw you meant T+I and 18th. Even with these you will not be able to do any work that you can't already do without them. You'd still have to get building control in to do notifiable work since no scheme will have you on now without provable experience.

Good point on the quals/no quals it is more important that you can do the work... I'm really looking at becoming a sole trader, probably part time initially, so it's not so much about people taking me on as being (and being able to prove I'm) competent and confident enough to do the work (minor works and a few basic notifiable works at first) . I think that qualifications help with that, although are obviously secondary to experience.

Well what experience do you have so far? Just general building trade experience can be enough - you can pick up the specifics of how to fit electrical accessories as you go, it's not hard. But if you're transitioning from say an office and are the type of guy that employs someone else to put some kitchen units together because you can't do it then it's going to be tougher.

I know how to do electrics because i learned it by myself through the years, watching others, reading books, getting practical experience, even working on my own dummy boards and rigs to figure out how to install quickly and efficiently. I was also a general builder so first fixing stuff, using measuring equipment, knowing how houses are put together etc was already my bread and butter so adapting to an electrical-only environment wasn't hard. I'm still rough around the edges with electrics like but getting there much quicker than a 16 year old would.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

There is also a domestic only nvq about to go live with the experience worker option to follow, will have a domestic only AM2 and lead to a gold card. if working as an electricians mate you could do the nvq add in the level 2 and 3 and you are away

 

[telectrix]

or go fo plumbing....pays better, no complicated regs. or maths ( ---- flows downhill, basic gravitinational theory) , and great fun fixing pipes across eletrical switchgear, and radiators over sockets. no brainer.

 

[aliensbrains]

There is also a domestic only nvq about to go live with the experience worker option to follow, will have a domestic only AM2 and lead to a gold card. if working as an electricians mate you could do the nvq add in the level 2 and 3 and you are away

That would be perfect if working as a mate (I'm not at the moment).

Interesting to see how this affects the DI CPS - or would it be a similar thing in the end i.e. both could sign off their own work, but only in a domestic setting?

 

[aliensbrains]

Also bear in mind that there's no such thing as a 'domestic installer' qualification - you would be as qualified to take on work as you are right now after taking it. C&G Level 3 doesn't give you any extra leverage to install domestically either. The only 'recognised' qualifications are 18th, testing and inspection, and the NVQ.

But the NIC EIC Domestic Installer qualified supervisor scheme, would hold weight, wouldn't it? And the qualifications in the original post would (along with all the other requirements on their website*) get you on to that... So it is better than nothing isn't it?

 

[philectrical]

But the NIC EIC Domestic Installer qualified supervisor scheme, would hold weight, wouldn't it? And the qualifications in the original post would (along with all the other requirements on their website*) get you on to that... So it is better than nothing isn't it?

Your goal is to work in people's houses. You need nothing except clients to be able to do that. You can't get onto the DI scheme without 2 years experience anyway.

 

[Dustydazzler]

or go fo plumbing....pays better, no complicated regs. or maths ( ---- flows downhill, basic gravitinational theory) , and great fun fixing pipes across eletrical switchgear, and radiators over sockets. no brainer.

Don't joke Tel , a good mate of mine who started out as a sparks roughly the same time as me , maybe a year or two into his sparks training he switched to plumbing and bathroom fitting and makes a killing. When I see him out and about he often ribs me how how he earns 3 grand a week and has no hoops to jump through and no regs or scams to pay for.

The more I think about it , the more I think he makes a good point

 

[philectrical]

Don't joke Tel , a good mate of mine who started out as a sparks roughly the same time as me , maybe a year or two into his sparks training he switched to plumbing and bathroom fitting and makes a killing. When I see him out and about he often ribs me how how he earns 3 grand a week and has no hoops to jump through and no regs or scams to pay for.

The more I think about it , the more I think he makes a good point

Be a plasterer, you only need a trowel, hawk, bucket, paddle, drill and a back made of titanium.

 

[aliensbrains]

The course is a scam then because C&G won't let you do level 3 without level 2.

You either have to go Level 2 -> Level 3 or go the experienced worker route where you need neither and can go straight to the NVQ.

EDIT: scrap that, i just saw you meant T+I and 18th. Even with these you will not be able to do any work that you can't already do without them. You'd still have to get building control in to do notifiable work since no scheme will have you on now without provable experience.



Well what experience do you have so far? Just general building trade experience can be enough - you can pick up the specifics of how to fit electrical accessories as you go, it's not hard. But if you're transitioning from say an office and are the type of guy that employs someone else to put some kitchen units together because you can't do it then it's going to be tougher.

I know how to do electrics because i learned it by myself through the years, watching others, reading books, getting practical experience, even working on my own dummy boards and rigs to figure out how to install quickly and efficiently. I was also a general builder so first fixing stuff, using measuring equipment, knowing how houses are put together etc was already my bread and butter so adapting to an electrical-only environment wasn't hard. I'm still rough around the edges with electrics like but getting there much quicker than a 16 year old would.

Sorry, missed this earlier.

I meant all of the quals posted earlier so:

LCL Awards Level 3 - Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installations in Dwellings
City & Guilds 2382-22 - Level 3 18th Edition Wiring Regulations
City & Guilds 2391-50 - Level 3 Inspection & Testing - Initial Verification

These are the ones on the 'DI course' I've been looking at and don't require a level 2 to enter. I've also rang NIC EIC and they confirmed that these would qualify for the DI qualified supervisor scheme

Previously I've done quite a bit of DIY, house renovation and probably far too many electrical adjustments than I should've done on my own properties. I've worked for estates teams doing general maintenance etc. I've worked in theatre and live entertainment on the tech side of things and have worked in audio engineering, recording and music production. I'm interested in electrics and electronics and, like you read up and practice wherever possible.

I'm definitely rough round the edges, but genuinely interested and eager to learn and practice as much as possible.

 

[philectrical]

Sorry, missed this earlier.

I meant all of the quals posted earlier so:

LCL Awards Level 3 - Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installations in Dwellings
City & Guilds 2382-22 - Level 3 18th Edition Wiring Regulations
City & Guilds 2391-50 - Level 3 Inspection & Testing - Initial Verification

These are the ones on the 'DI course' I've been looking at and don't require a level 2 to enter. I've also rang NIC EIC and they confirmed that these would qualify for the DI qualified supervisor scheme

Previously I've done quite a bit of DIY, house renovation and probably far too many electrical adjustments than I should've done on my own properties. I've worked for estates teams doing general maintenance etc. I've worked in theatre and live entertainment on the tech side of things and have worked in audio engineering, recording and music production. I'm interested in electrics and electronics and, like you read up and practice wherever possible.

I'm definitely rough round the edges, but genuinely interested and eager to learn and practice as much as possible.

Yeah my bad mate i edited the post, thought your C&G reference was level 3 2365.

Still, there's no such thing as a 'domestic installer' course, this sounds like a few quals being dressed up under that name. They're great quals to have but give you no more right to call yourself a domestic installer than if you didn't have them. You won't be able to join a scheme, sign off work, probably wouldn't get any work on site as a fully fledged electrician, can't get a JIB gold card, can't even get the relevant ECS card with it.

The point is just be wary that what is being sold to you is 'do this course and then you can do domestic installation' when really you can already do it. Those courses are just testing and the regs, both open book exams.

Don't know what NIC are on about but you can't go on their schemes just with those qualifications anymore, their handbook says you need 2 years post-qualification experience in a supervisory role. Changes are listed here:

Change to the applicant Qualified Supervisor qualification and experience requirements from September 2020 and September 2021 including - a requirement for two years responsibility for electrotechnical work and ongoing continuing Professional Development and - from Sept 21 the requirement to hold a formal ‘craft’ qualification as well as BS 7671 and inspection and testing qualifications for applicant QS’s, with recognition of previous experience of being a registered QS within the last 2 years.

If a previously registered QS is applying for registration under this experience route, evidence such as a letter from the previous scheme provider or the last assessment report confirming their name, QS status, scope of work assessed (which must be equal to the scope of work applied for), date and assessment outcome will be required. Additional requirements for documentation to support electrical work completed by the business. Greater focus on assessing staff supervision (employed persons*) and the records the business keeps in general, especially in respect of staff training records, competence and CPD evidence.