APPRENTICES

[Pete999]

Not a dig at anyone, more of a genuine enquiry, before anyone gets it into their heads that I'm having a dig, It's not my intension, OK.

During my time the Forum, I have become more confused between "A Trainee Electrician and an Apprentice Electrician" what is the difference between the two?

Many time I have seen, as an example a 25+ year old looking for an Apprenticeship, apart from the low pay to start with, how do these Apprenticeships work? how long are they Apprenticed for? do firms still get help from HMG for employing an Apprentice of any age?

Like I stressed at the start, this is a genuine question, all very different from when many of us "Oldies" started out.
Grateful for any replies.

Hope this is in the right area for my question.

 

[richy3333]

My Apprentice is 27 years old. He's on the SJIB apprentice course. 4 years. Final exam similar to AM2 at the end. In Scotland they have to be paid in accordance with SJIB rates or Scottish pay requirements, whichever is greater. He's probably the oldest in his group. Theres plenty of 16/17 year olds and I'm not surprised as I could pay them half of what he gets!

I get zero financial assistance for his training except that SJIB/SECTT and the Scottish government pay for his college course, exams BS7671 and on-site guide. I've bought him all his tools, test equipment, work clothes PPE etc

I've never really thought about the terms but would see trainee or apprentice as the same thing I suppose Pete?

 

[Pete999]

My Apprentice is 27 years old. He's on the SJIB apprentice course. 4 years. Final exam similar to AM2 at the end. In Scotland they have to be paid in accordance with SJIB rates or Scottish pay requirements, whichever is greater. He's probably the oldest in his group. Theres plenty of 16/17 year olds and I'm not surprised as I could pay them half of what he gets!

I get zero financial assistance for his training except that SJIB/SECTT and the Scottish government pay for his college course, exams BS7671 and on-site guide. I've bought him all his tools, test equipment, work clothes PPE etc

I've never really thought about the terms but would see trainee or apprentice as the same thing I suppose Pete?

Thanks Mate interesting

 

[Loki]

Im just finishing my apprenticeship just waiting for AM2S exam date.

Wages are low the first year. Check out the national minimum wage on the internet. After that first year it does go up.
Apprenticeship is 4 years. 3 years to cover the college theory & works experience the 4th year is for finishing off your portfolio & taking the AM2 exam.
My apprenticeship is funded by my employer & European Social Funding

 

[Pete999]

Im just finishing my apprenticeship just waiting for AM2S exam date.

Wages are low the first year. Check out the national minimum wage on the internet. After that first year it does go up.
Apprenticeship is 4 years. 3 years to cover the college theory & works experience the 4th year is for finishing off your portfolio & taking the AM2 exam.
My apprenticeship is funded by my employer & European Social Funding

Thanks Loki are you expecting to stay with your current employer, or move on? good luck whatever you decide to do. Do trainees do the same then? as I have difficulty distinguishing Apprentice Electricians from Trainees Electricians, I get the impression that a Trainee Electrician, is someone that just does a short course, no disrespect intended, could be just my interpretation of the terms, hope nobody takes any offence cus none is intended.

 

[JK-Electrical]

My 'apprentice' will be 31 this year! As is the case with yourself, I pay him the SJIB adult trainee rate, which for a stage 2 trainee is currently £11.74 an hour. SECTT fund his training.

 

[davesparks]

All apprentices are trainees, but not all trainees are apprentices.
An apprentice is a specific type of trainee.
A trainee is anyone who is undergoing training.

 

[Pete999]

My 'apprentice' will be 31 this year! As is the case with yourself, I pay him the SJIB adult trainee rate, which for a stage 2 trainee is currently £11.74 an hour. SECTT fund his training.

Thanks' for the info JK.

 

[HexHex]

These are JIB terms...

Trainee Electrician

The Trainee Electrician ECS card is for trainees that are not undertaking an apprenticeship but are following a formal JIB industry training programme that will lead to an ECS Gold Card.

This card is issued under the strict understanding that a formal industry training programme is being undertaken and that all work the trainee carries out is under supervision.

The trainee should be JIB-registered by their training provider to get the full benefit from industry registration and includes the initial ECS trainee card. The JIB training requirements are listed in the JIB Handbook.

Apprentice

The Apprentice ECS card is for students undertaking any electrical/electronic advanced apprenticeship.

It allows apprentices to be formally recognised and work on site to gain valuable industry experience in support of their training. The cards are issued under the strict understanding that a formal industry training programme is being undertaken and that all work the apprentice carries out is under supervision.

The apprentice should be JIB-registered by their training provider to get the full benefit from industry registration. JIB registration includes an initial ECS card, staged apprentice cards to show progression and the final Gold card at the successful completion of the apprenticeship. The JIB training requirements are listed in the JIB Handbook.

Apprentices registered with the JIB will have JIB Registered printed on their ECS card.

 

[Pete999]

These are JIB terms...

Thanks Mate appreciated
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These are JIB terms...

So not a great deal of difference then, or have I misunderstood the differences?

 

[Zerax]

From my understanding... if it's a formal apprenticeship, then the pay rates are lower and the government funds 95% of training costs.

The term 'apprentice' was highjacked by the government some time ago as a way of reducing the NEET figures. In olden times, young lads would be 'apprenticed' to someone in order to learn a trade. They'd forego high monetary earnings to learn a trade that you'd do for the rest of your life, and usually have to commit to a 7 year contract. These days it's more about getting government money.

 

[Pete999]

So, in conclusion an Apprentice will complet a 4 year training period, with the caveat that the last 4th year will allow the Apprentice to complete their AM2S and complete their portfolio,
Whereas the trainee has to complete training overseen by the JIB am I correct so far? at what stage in the differing training regimes are the "Trainees or Apprentices" allowed to be let loose on Joe public? Perhaps Trainee and/or Apprentice needs to be clarified a little better, Just my opinion, or perhaps the governing authorities, need to take stock of the future of our industry. As it looks as though someone that can't gain an Apprenticeship, but can become an Electrician, without an Apprenticeship, I'm sorry if this is somewhat cintraversial, just my understanding of the situation. I'm sure there will be disentors.

 

[HexHex]

My understanding is there isn't a great deal of difference in the end result

Both need to complete NVQ Level 3, AM2 and current wiring regs before they get their gold card and official status as an Electrician which is what most companies look for

As for being allowed to be let loose on the public, this has always been a grey area because you only need to be "Competent" and so you get a lot of people who fall in this category without going down the usual route of "Time served" but struggle to find site or employed work and so work for themselves

 

[Pete999]

My understanding is there isn't a great deal of difference in the end result

Both need to complete NVQ Level 3, AM2 and current wiring regs before they get their gold card and official status as an Electrician which is what most companies look for

As for being allowed to be let loose on the public, this has always been a grey area because you only need to be "Competent" and so you get a lot of people who fall in this category without going down the usual route of "Time served" but struggle to find site or employed work and so work for themselves

So, thank you for your input, what do you think the answer is with regards to training/Apprenticeships? an overhaul. or what?

 

[HexHex]

I have no problem with apprenticeships or training done the 'official' way

apprenticeships are recognised as a time served method but training can be done a number of ways and I do not believe in the fast track route training courses

so yes in some areas I believe at the very least some of the grey areas, back doors and 'competent' persons rules should be tightened up

 

[richy3333]

My apprentice has been doing work unsupervised for a long time. You just have to choose the work depending upon their skill level. In the last couple of weeks he’s screwed up the lighting in a new build house, second fixing but also did great work with cctv in a commercial environment

 

[HexHex]

Just to clarify this point...

Do trainees do the same then? as I have difficulty distinguishing Apprentice Electricians from Trainees Electricians, I get the impression that a Trainee Electrician, is someone that just does a short course

Some trainees do the same, but instead of day release to college they do nights, mostly self funded but still 3 years college followed by portfolio building on site for their level 3 and AM2. This is the route some people do who cant get an apprenticeship but this route is still seen as 'Time served'

Then you have the trainees who do the short course route

You can get bad and good electricians from any of them groups but obviously the short course route for someone who knows very little to start with will leave them with massive gaps in their knowledge to do the job of an electrician (IMO)

 

[littlespark]

My apprentice has been doing work unsupervised for a long time. You just have to choose the work depending upon their skill level. In the last couple of weeks he’s screwed up the lighting in a new build house, second fixing but also did great work with cctv in a commercial environment

Oh do tell!
how did he screw it up? Bathroom switch turns on living room light?

 

[Zerax]

My personal view... is that the whole system of electrician training needs to be scrapped and started again. It's a system that is partly stuck in the past, but has modern changes made to it. It's a system that both ensures competence and allows incompetence.

I think we should have a simple series of theoretical 'papers' that need to be studied and passed... that is accompanied by a simple series of practical tests/challenges. The papers becoming progressively more complex/challenging. Regular changes of course numbering should be outlawed to avoid confusions. Textbooks should be available for each 'paper' allowing easy study and exam centres should be available to be booked by individuals.

Prior learning should allow exemptions as required.

You only have to see the constant stream of training queries on this illustrious forum to see that there's widespread confusion out there.

 

[Pete999]

My understanding is there isn't a great deal of difference in the end result

Both need to complete NVQ Level 3, AM2 and current wiring regs before they get their gold card and official status as an Electrician which is what most companies look for

As for being allowed to be let loose on the public, this has always been a grey area because you only need to be "Competent" and so you get a lot of people who fall in this category without going down the usual route of "Time served" but struggle to find site or employed work and so work for themselves

My "let loose" was a bit tongue in cheek, what I meant was when will the two types of learners be deemed competent enough to allow them to work alone, for themselves etc, because that seems to be the aim of many a person undertaking work either as a Trainee or an Apprentice.

To my mind there seems to be very little difference between the two types as both need to complete NVQ Eevel3, and AM3 why the difference?

I ask is it just that a person who is a Trainee, is someone that couldn't, can't or can't be bothered to wait for an Apprenticeship opportunity to come along, whereas if you are Apprenticed you need to be prepared to work for someone that is prepared to keep you on their books, for the 4 years.

A Trainee on the other hand can flit from job to job, as long as he/she adheres to the JIB training rules, gaining formal Qualifications from short training courses. Who supervises the Trainees. is it just as long as they complete the Portfolio?

Is this a result of people deciding to change careers, not knowing what their aim in life is? or a general lack of respect for Tradespersons, " Oh I know I fancy being an Electrician. Plumber or whatever" just because I'm fed up with my lot at this time in my life.

Sorry for all the questions, you know I am "Old School" I am genuinely interested, as many of the "Apprentices" at my last and only job were not Apprenticed as Electricians, they did what I can only describe as to be a good "Technician" the ultimate aim was to take up a posting as a Tech in a UK Mission overseas somewhere, with the Electrician bit as an add on skill, don't get me wrong the Apprenticeships were good and wide ranging, just seems odd that these Guys would do just 6 months or so in the Electrical arena, gaining their qualifications at the end of their training,

I guess the ultimate question from me is "has the Apprentice route taken a nosedive to the bottom?" like I said I'm not having a dig, at my age I ain't going to change anything or light any fires under anyone's pants, just seems watered down and alien to someone that had to do 6 years as an Apprentice 6 months probation prior to starting, and 6 months as an Improver at the end, then getting your cards and told to move on, mind you jobs weren't as hard to come by as today.