Discuss Britain Leave the European Union (Please be polite with other people's views) in the Politics & The Economy area at ElectriciansForums.net

snowhead

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What does it say? If you’re using it as an argument I assume you’ve read it so perhaps you can post a link.
By verse do you mean article?
The other 27 Countries would eventually overcome the U.K opt out.
 

darkwood

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Bit busy this morning Ung so can you cite these clauses please.
I prefer Darkwood ;)

The Lisbon Treaty brings its member states that are not already so into the Euro by 2025 as stated by the EU itself, to note here we are exempt from this but the effects of which pulling in more poorer nations into the Euro which is already in trouble and been artificially keep afloat for many yrs will means those members making positive contributions to the EU will see a big rise in their contributions to counter the effects of this move.

The Lisbon Treaty dilutes the power of veto, although it does not fully remove it, the EU are making it difficult for any nation to scupper its plans and directions and this is just one of a few steps within the Lisbon Treaty that effectively weaken it members states powers while strengthening the EU's, there will be 3 types of voting and the EU gets to choose which it uses, only the unanimous vote allows a veto to block a proposed change, do you really think the EU will allow this unanimous vote to be put on regulation and laws it desperate to get approved to realise its ideology.

The Lisbon treaty expands it powers over member trade deals, although we already have to abide by what the EU allows in any trade deal we strike, the Lisbon Treaty extends those powers further.

The Lisbon Treaty expands its power over its members national policy, although there are plenty of areas member states still have control we see this as yet more power grabbing and implicitly part of it long term goal of a superstate where it would need to become the one ruling body.

The Lisbon Treaty mentions nothing about member state rebates and the reason is because in 2020 the EU is aiming to stop members rebates so any remainer arguments about getting rebates to help our industries is going to be very short lived, this means effectively the EU gets a massive boost to monies received from members making positive contributions, also even given this change the contributions expected to be given to the EU by 2020 with have risen a number of billions to about 16.5billion as forecast by The office of budget responsibility.

In a nutshell, we are passing over more powers, paying more for it and losing our rebates as a way of the EU saying thank you, I have only mentioned the changes that are yet to occur and not even touched on the changes we already are complying since the Lisbon Treaty was drafted and agreed.
 
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Murdoch

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We have an opt out, won't happen unless we want it to.
Not taking sides here, but under the changes in voting outlined in the Lisbon Treaty, which will be implemented, blocking anything will get far, far harder .....
 

Murdoch

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The other 27 Countries would eventually overcome the U.K opt out.
One thing on our side is that there are 9 countries, including the UK, that do not use the Euro. The most vocal "anti" country is Poland
 

Zerax

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....Given we should have left the EU did the leavers stay at home and not bother to vote...
I seem to recall that the turnout was lower in Remain supporting
Sorry Snow, I misunderstood what you were saying.

But no, we will not lose our opt out unless we give it up.
It'll be bargained away to fix a problem that the EU have created... Blair was close to giving Gibraltar to the Spanish until he realised the backlash and lack of internal political benefit...
 
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darkwood

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One thing on our side is that there are 9 countries, including the UK, that do not use the Euro. The most vocal "anti" country is Poland
Not for much longer, the EU is going to bring 7 of these members into the Euro by 2025, the only 2 countries who have an opt out are ourselves the UK and Denmark have an opt-out so we will not be adopting the Euro unless we decide we want to, if we stayed and remained outside the Euro then you would probably find over the next decade or so that the EU makes it more and more difficult to be an EU member and not in the Euro because that is what its goal is as stated by the president and others in recent yrs.
 
D

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Sounds like a lot of speculation to me.
Thing is though, would any of it be a bad thing?
 

darkwood

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The bad thing Spin is that the EU is a ring fenced trade body, been in it gives a certain guarantee of economical growth which is wonderful if you are one of the existing or joining poorer nations but the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and been part of the EU means our economy is been artificially held back, this can easily be shown by decades of the worlds economical growth figures. If you are in the EU then your economy over the last 2 decades grew far slower than the rest of the western worlds trading economies.

The other problems with been locked into the EU is anti-competition regulations, the problem of a ring fenced system is lack of competition from the rest of the world because the goods are either tariffed and/or regulations imposed that makes it hard for other free markets to comply.. this has some serious negative effects:-

-Quality of good fall over time
-Prices for those goods rises
-Workers making those goods are often less skilled and underpayed

I can vouch definitely for this as I import Italian machinery which is often overpriced, non compliant and poor design and quality and yet I cannot directly bring in better quality, higher standard gear from other nations because of imposed tariffs etc which in a free market we could do and benefit as an economy and a nation.

I constantly hear remainers saying the EU is about free trade between members but this is all a smoke screen, this free trade only helps the massive corporations that are big enough to lean on the EU, the rest of the system punishes middle and small business with tariffs on goods and the end buyer too, the most basics in goods or the essentials like food, clothing etc which you need are heavily tariffed, this is something that effect the poorest the hardest, if we left we could set our own tariffs and set a competitive market against the EU which if it wanted to compete would be forced to reduce its own tariffs ... this is why the EU is so desperate we remain in the customs union and why I believe we are been cheated on with the referendum, the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers with its trade and financial contributions, leaving would leave a massive dent in for the EU while the UK benefits from the savings it makes on contribution and the cheaper better quality goods competition brings as we trade under our own terms that suit our needs and not those of a ring fenced system.

This is basic business sense on a national scale, the economy forecast is what investors look at, isn't it strange over the last few yrs that foreign investment into our shores has been at record highs while respectively the EU has seen a big fall... all in the light of Brexit, the only thing that has slowed down our investment recently is there now seems to be a chance we will be tied somehow to the customs union which has spooked those same investors.
 

Murdoch

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If 25 countries adopt the euro, and don't adopt political and fiscal union, the Germans will get wealthier, and the majority of the Euro zone will get poorer.

In uk terms it would be like the south east not sharing its wealth around the UK .....
 

FatAlan

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The bad thing Spin is that the EU is a ring fenced trade body, been in it gives a certain guarantee of economical growth which is wonderful if you are one of the existing or joining poorer nations but the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and been part of the EU means our economy is been artificially held back, this can easily be shown by decades of the worlds economical growth figures. If you are in the EU then your economy over the last 2 decades grew far slower than the rest of the western worlds trading economies.

The other problems with been locked into the EU is anti-competition regulations, the problem of a ring fenced system is lack of competition from the rest of the world because the goods are either tariffed and/or regulations imposed that makes it hard for other free markets to comply.. this has some serious negative effects:-

-Quality of good fall over time
-Prices for those goods rises
-Workers making those goods are often less skilled and underpayed

I can vouch definitely for this as I import Italian machinery which is often overpriced, non compliant and poor design and quality and yet I cannot directly bring in better quality, higher standard gear from other nations because of imposed tariffs etc which in a free market we could do and benefit as an economy and a nation.

I constantly hear remainers saying the EU is about free trade between members but this is all a smoke screen, this free trade only helps the massive corporations that are big enough to lean on the EU, the rest of the system punishes middle and small business with tariffs on goods and the end buyer too, the most basics in goods or the essentials like food, clothing etc which you need are heavily tariffed, this is something that effect the poorest the hardest, if we left we could set our own tariffs and set a competitive market against the EU which if it wanted to compete would be forced to reduce its own tariffs ... this is why the EU is so desperate we remain in the customs union and why I believe we are been cheated on with the referendum, the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers with its trade and financial contributions, leaving would leave a massive dent in for the EU while the UK benefits from the savings it makes on contribution and the cheaper better quality goods competition brings as we trade under our own terms that suit our needs and not those of a ring fenced system.

This is basic business sense on a national scale, the economy forecast is what investors look at, isn't it strange over the last few yrs that foreign investment into our shores has been at record highs while respectively the EU has seen a big fall... all in the light of Brexit, the only thing that has slowed down our investment recently is there now seems to be a chance we will be tied somehow to the customs union which has spooked those same investors.
Good post Darkwood. Where did you get your figures on foreign investment? FT has said that it’s at its lowest level for six years and that investment by UK firms in Europe is up 12%
 

darkwood

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Good post Darkwood. Where did you get your figures on foreign investment? FT has said that it’s at its lowest level for six years and that investment by UK firms in Europe is up 12%
Although it's a old thread, you have answered your own question here, investment in UK is at an all time high 2017-18 and EU has fallen, given that the UK has a bigger economy than the vast majority of EU members combined, in respect we can evaluate it to the EU losing 18 members given our contribution, the reason why we are in this situation is a remainer did a deal that a country would do only in a surrender situation, she never put our strongest card on the table hence the laughed at us and ignored Mays cries.... now the tables have turned because the default is no deal legally so the EU WILL DO A LAST MINUTE DEAL... the 15 countries that depend on our trade is a very strong card... or you can listen to the biased media who even the BBC get millions in funding from the EU.
 

darkwood

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Ps, got the the figures from external foreign investment over the given dates by the the government figures .. something they fail to express over the normal biased media channels.
 

FatAlan

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Interesting. So you are saying that the FT figures are wrong? It’s also interesting that you feel the BBC is biased against Brexit. I had the opposite impression bearing in mind the government appoint the chair. Hope you’re right re a last minute deal.
 

telectrix

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to resolve the Irish border problem:
Option 1. referendum in N.I. --- stay in UK or unite with ROI.(but not in EU)
Option 2. referendum in ROI---leave the EU with the option of joining UK.

any comments?
 

andyb

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to resolve the Irish border problem:
Option 1. referendum in N.I. --- stay in UK or unite with ROI.(but not in EU)
Option 2. referendum in ROI---leave the EU with the option of joining UK.

any comments?
Option 1. If they unite Ireland, then that will definitely resolve the border problem. But they will be in the EU, it's not for us to tell a sovereign country what to do.


Option 2. Again, we can’t tell other countries what to do.
But I can assure you, if that were possible it would be almost 100% to stay as they are. You see the Irish are not as gullible as us.
 

telectrix

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Did you do any History classes at school. Or did you bunk off to have a crafty fag behind the bike sheds with randy Mary?
course i did. Ireland will always be divided, though maybe not as at present. civil wars come and go... Britain, USA, France, Russia: the countries are all still in existence after major turmoil. who knows what the next 100 years will bring.
 

telectrix

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Option 1. If they unite Ireland, then that will definitely resolve the border problem. But they will be in the EU, it's not for us to tell a sovereign country what to do.


Option 2. Again, we can’t tell other countries what to do.
But I can assure you, if that were possible it would be almost 100% to stay as they are. You see the Irish are not as gullible as us.
who knows. maybe ROI want their fishing rights back. they benefited from joining the eu, but now the honeymoon is over, maybe they realise what a mistake it was.
 

Midwest

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course i did. Ireland will always be divided, though maybe not as at present.
Think it was Henry VIII that resolved the issue in England & Wales and basically removed the Catholic Church, for purely personal reasons. He didn’t seem to care much about Scotland & NI.

If that hadn’t of happened, things perhaps might be different?
 
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rapparee

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A lovely thing called religion gets in the way. The cause of many of the problems in this world.
Religion has nothing to do with it.

It's a lazy way of defining the conflict, it's a straight forward nationalist conflict British or Irish. The IRA were regularly denounced from the altar. Loyalist paramilitaries were not running around espousing the virtues of faith alone and no need for good works.
 

JK-Electrical

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Think it was Henry VIII that resolved the issue in England & Wales and basically removed the Catholic Church, for purely personal reasons. He didn’t seem to care much about Scotland & NI.

If that hadn’t of happened, things perhaps might be different?
As an aside, Henry wrote this charming little ditty, Pastime with Good Company, performed here by the maestro himself, Ritchie Blackmore with his :hearteyes::hearteyes::hearteyes: absolutely gorgeous wife :hearteyes::hearteyes::hearteyes: on vocals:

 

JK-Electrical

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Religion has nothing to do with it.

It's a lazy way of defining the conflict, it's a straight forward nationalist conflict British or Irish. The IRA were regularly denounced from the altar. Loyalist paramilitaries were not running around espousing the virtues of faith alone and no need for good works.
A highly-recommended read for anyone who would like to develop a better understanding of 'the troubles'.

Ireland: A Terrible Beauty
 
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Nigel

Whom gets to decide who is worthy of a ‘Respected Member’ tag and what qualifies them to judge?
 

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