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Discuss building control fee for electrical work even though its my job in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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ab1978

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Hi all
I'm in the middle of a arguement with local building control over my 2 storey extension on my own house, last year it was started and when i applied for building regs etc i told the B.I bloke that i'll be doing the electrical work as its mfull time job in the day. Told him i could'nt use my niceic reg as it for the company i work for they pay for it, so he said give me copy of your qualifications including 17th update. got back to me and all i have to do is supply electrical certificate, no fee as i'm paying for building regs. well this morning i get a letter saying as i'm not registered with a part p body its invalid and if they do not get one electronically in 28 days from letter then the project will not be considered not satisfactory and when i rang them they stood by the letter and what i was told last november is wrong and they want £342 to send their electricain to test and check all meets part p. has anyone had this problem before
 
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telectrix

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they are talking crap. as long as you are qualified and competent, they should accept your installation certificate.
 
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RISElectrical

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  • #3
As tel said. Send them your certs to prove your competent and stand your ground.
 
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ab1978

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  • #4
hi
thanks for the reply, do you know anywhere on the web that says this and i could use it to back my arguement
 
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Engineer54

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  • #5
Pretty sure the building control fee's you paid for the extension, would cover the electrical Part P. So it's only your qualified/competency they can ask you to prove. A letter from your company should soon sort that one out, you have already supplied them with copies of your qualifications... lol!!

Also, if you have an acceptance letter from your LABC about the electrical installation certificate, as indicated in your post, wave that in their faces. They cannot retrospectively ask for anything over and above, that has already been agreed in writing between yourselves...
 
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Plonker 3

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  • #6
Well the Part P document says the certificates used used must comply with the ones in BS7671, which also states
The certificate required by Part 7 of BS7671 shall be made out and signed or otherwise authenticated by a competant person or persons in respect of the design, construction, inspection and testing of the work
BS 7671 definition of a Competent person
A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.
So reading that it says to me that as long as your certificate is compliant with BS7671 it shall be acceptable that the installation is installed correctly.
 
threaten them with court action, ie pay a solicitor to send them a letter detailing what DILb has said above. I put money on the fact that the council back down!
 
S

SPARTYKUS

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  • #8
sounds like a jobsworth in the office. As if they haven't got enough proper work to do without this nonsense
 
A

ab1978

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  • #9
thanks for the replies folks
Think I'll pop into local council offices tomorrow as i'm working nearby and take my quals and electrical certificate for the house ext andtell them to explain to me what the difference is between what I'm giving them here and the one that they want which will be the same but cost me £342 and somebody elses hand writing
 
What's your position in with your employer mate? If you have been there a long time and they trust you implicitly you might find that one day they "might decide that it could have been done by the company and someone forgot about it"
Unlikely I know but possible.
That'd pee on LABC's firworks
 
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RISElectrical

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  • #11
What Trev said, id have a word and see if they will notify it for you?
 
Oi Oi Oi Trev said nowt bonny lad! Trev was merely discussing what may be the strangest of coincidences:)
 
M

Mainman

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  • #14
LABC and building inspectors certainly know building regs but are not up on electrical regs. If you are competent, normally all they want is a cert and a copy of your quals just to close the file and issue a BC certificate. Your Inspector seems to have lost his way in the red tape
 
The LA are correct , to register a job you need to be part p certified/registered with one of 6 bodies yourself regardless of how many PhD's you have . Your only way round it is to get the company you work for to sign it off for you hence them taking on the liability under there insurance witch you probably don't have as your cards in ? ,
 

ruston

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There was a document issued from the office of the deputy prime minister stating that the labc's could not charge for inspection if the notification fee was included in the planning permission and building fee's. This was a while back , shortly after the the inception of the "first edition of part P". A search may find it for you.



A look through the part P document may help you too, I'm sure there is still some info relating to it on the Gov web site.
If I get time later I will have a look if you can't find it.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/AD_P_wm.pdf

Download the document and browse the site , it may help you
 
A

ab1978

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  • #17
well just let you know i've been onto them today again and my bs7671 cert for the electrical work is not valid as i have to be a member of an reg body, this is because there is nobody who inspects jobs has the knowledge of the electrical side and its easier for them for reg electricians to supply the certs electronically. other words they have'nt got a clue about this part of the building trade have they.
 
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RISElectrical

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  • #18
If they have the knowledge or not is irrelivent. The fact is they are wrong!
 
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Mark_Burgess

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  • #19
This is where WE should be able to access and log notifiable work!
 
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Engineer54

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  • #20
Been on to them, or gone in to see them?? Face to Face is always better!!! You don't HAVE to be registered with any scam provider, so even if they want to play silly buggers the fee has already been paid in your building fee's, so it's up to them now, if they wish to pay a 3rd party to inspect your installation or not.

Not only that, you can and have already proven your competency, ...Hell, if a electrical trainee can be deemed competent, i'm sure you won't have any trouble whatsoever...lol!!!
 
A

ab1978

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  • #21
i did go in but the q put me off so rang when i went back on site, to be honest they didn't even sound confident in what they were telling me, spoke to a bloke on site today his neighbour is an electrician for his family building firm and he's not registered as they do extensions and loft conversions and because you pay for building regs that includes electrics and i've just found my paperwork and it states electrical work must be installed and tested to to building reg part p and a bs7671 certificate issued.
 

telectrix

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electrical work must be installed and tested to to building reg part p and a bs7671 certificate issued.


that's exactly the point. you have them over a barrel with that. stick to your guns. you are right , they are wrong.

 
[h=3]Part P FAQs IET Quote[/h]

[h=2]Q1: When did Part P come into effect?[/h]Part P came into effect in England and Wales on 1 January 2005.
[h=2]Q2: What are the requirements of Part P?[/h]As of 1 January 2005 it is a legal requirement for all work on fixed electrical installations in dwellings and associated buildings to comply with relevant standards. The relevant UK standard is BS 7671:2008, 'Requirements for electrical installations' (The IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition). BS 7671 covers requirements for design, installation, inspection, testing, verification and certification.
[h=2]Q3: To what types of electrical work does Part P apply?[/h]
  • In or attached to a dwelling
  • In the common parts of buildings serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts
  • In a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling, and
  • In a garden or in or on land associate with a building where the electricity supply is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling
The term dwelling includes houses, maisonettes and flats. It also applies to electrical installations in business premises that share an electricity supply with dwellings, such as shops and public houses with a flat above.
The common parts of buildings includes access areas in blocks of flats such as hallways and shared amenities in blocks of flats such as laundries and gymnasiums.
Part P applies to electrical installations located in outbuildings such as detached garages, sheds and greenhouses.
Part P applies to parts of electrical installations located on land around dwellings such as garden lighting.
Part P applies to electrical installations that operate at voltages not exceeding 1000 V a.c.
Notifiable work includes new installations, house re-wires, and the installation of new circuits. Notifiable work also includes additions to existing circuits in kitchens, bathrooms, outdoors and in other special locations. (See question 5 note 5.)
[h=2]Q4: Will all electrical work need Building Regulations approval?[/h]No. In general, notification will need to be given to, or full plans deposited with, a building control body only if the work is major involving one or more complete new circuits, and is not being carried out by an electrical contractor registered with an authorised competent person self-certification scheme.
[h=2]Q5: What types of electrical work are 'non-notifiable'?[/h]The following types of work are non-notifiable:

  • Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses
  • Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact (1)
  • Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (2)
  • Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (3)
  • Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (4)
  • Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation (5) and consists of:
    - adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit (6)
    - adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit (6)
[h=4]Notes:[/h](1) On condition that the replacement cable has the same current-carrying capacity, follows the same route and does not serve more than one sub-circuit through a distribution board;
(2) If the circuit's protective measures are unaffected;
(3) If the circuit's protective measures and current-carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected by increased thermal insulation;
(4) Such work shall comply with other applicable legislation, such as the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations;
(5) Special locations and installations are listed below;
(6) Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.

[h=4]Special locations and installations (5):[/h]
  • Locations containing a bath tub or shower basin
  • Swimming pools or paddling pools
  • Hot air saunas
  • Electric floor or ceiling heating systems
  • Garden lighting or power installations
  • Solar photovoltaic (PV) power supply systems
  • Small scale generators such as micro-CHP units
  • Extra-low voltage lighting installations, other than pre-assembled, CE-marked lighting sets
Note: See Guidance Note 7 which gives more guidance on achieving safe installations where risks to people are greater.
[h=2]Q6: How will Part P apply to DIY work?[/h]Part P will apply to all electrical work in dwellings, whether carried out by professionals or DIYers.
Some DIY work will require the submission of a building notice to the local authority and the payment of a building control fee.
Some minor electrical work will not be notifiable (see above). Examples include adding a lighting or power point to an existing circuit, adding a spur to an existing circuit or replacing a light fitting.
[h=2]Q7: How will compliance with Part P be enforced?[/h]Failure to comply with the Building Regulations is a criminal offence and local authorities have the power to require the removal or alteration of work that does not comply with the requirements.
[h=2]Q8: What extra costs will be imposed on electricians?[/h]The annual cost of joining a Competent Person Scheme should be negligible, when spread over the number of jobs undertaken during the year.
[h=2]Q9: Local authorities will require more resources to cope with the extra work - where will these come from?[/h]There should be no additional financial implications for local authorities. The money to pay for additional Building Control Inspectors will accrue from building control fees.
Some local authorities will employ electrical inspectors, whilst others will operate a system of call-off contracts.
CLG require that the joining and inspection fees set by the scheme operator are sufficient only to cover their costs and allow future development of the schemes.
[h=2]Q10: Many electrical faults are not caused by bad workmanship, so why bother with Part P?[/h]In the Regulatory Impact Assessment, the Government estimated that around 30% of electrical accidents could be prevented through regulation, and that this would justify bringing electrical work in dwellings under Building Regulations control.
[h=2]Q11: Won't Part P simply drive more work 'underground'?[/h]The Regulatory Impact Assessment considered the question of whether regulation would result in more unsafe work. The Government does not consider there is any evidence that this will be the case.
[h=2]Q12: What will be the benefits of Part P?[/h]It is expected that bringing electrical work in dwellings under building regulations control will reduce the number of deaths, injuries and fires caused by faults in electrical installations. It is expected that nationally Part P will lead to an improvement in the competence of electrical contractors and to an improvement in the overall quality of electrical work.








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Anyone can carry out electrical work,provided they notify,notifiable jobs to LABC, pay the fee or if Part P registered, do it through the scheme provider. If not a scheme member, you pay LABC the fee and they should send someone to inspect during installation and test afterwards(which they rarely do in my experience!), BUT!!! the LABC should provide this service INCLUSIVE OF THE NOTIFICATION FEE.
When LABC instructs someone to inspect and test, it is NOT to the cost of the Homeowner
 
Been through all this before I was part P registered. The notification of electrical work is a different fee to that of other work, and so unless requested at the time, wouldn't be covered by another building notice.
Although it sounds like (for once) they are sticking to the letter of the law, you are being told exactly what I was... Unless you notify and pay the fee for the BC officer to pre-inspect, then post-inspect, any electrical work must be signed off by a competent electrician who is part P registered. It is irrelevant what your qualifications are (it does state this in the electrician's guide to the building regs).
All that said, if it says in black and white that your notice covers specific electrical work, then you are covered, and they should have already been out for the initial electrical inspection.
Please don't shoot the messenger here, as I think it sucks, considering what so many cowboys get away with...
 

telectrix

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Been through all this before I was part P registered. The notification of electrical work is a different fee to that of other work, and so unless requested at the time, wouldn't be covered by another building notice.
Although it sounds like (for once) they are sticking to the letter of the law, you are being told exactly what I was... Unless you notify and pay the fee for the BC officer to pre-inspect, then post-inspect, any electrical work must be signed off by a competent electrician who is part P registered. It is irrelevant what your qualifications are (it does state this in the electrician's guide to the building regs).
All that said, if it says in black and white that your notice covers specific electrical work, then you are covered, and they should have already been out for the initial electrical inspection.
Please don't shoot the messenger here, as I think it sucks, considering what so many cowboys get away with...
you are correct as regards purely electrical work. however, where a project has been subject to planning, LABC have already been notified and paid the appropriate fees. it is then at their discretion whether or not to accept a cert. from a non-registered sparks. if they want to test/inspect, then that is at their own expense
 

darkwood

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Id knock the extension down in protest.... watch them weep in their porridge when you refuse to pay then ;)
 
A

ab1978

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  • #28
just to update you all looks like i'm getting my wallet out and paying a local electrician to test and do a pir on my electrics on my extension, been into see bci today and even if your qualified you can't do electrics on my own house even with paid building regs as you have to be registered. whats done it is people only with the 2382 saying there a qualified sparks and when they've done the work look at building control and say i can't test or do a cert so it opened a can of worms and to be fair he was clued up on what an electrician qualifications are and if he could would accept mine. oh and i'm not paying there inspection fee i've got a local plus cheaper sparks to come and check my work
 
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RISElectrical

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  • #29
That's rubbish and IS not the written rule unless it's changed recently
 

ruston

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No it's still in the 2010 doc page 12 I think , at the Councils expense . Download the doc it may save you a few quid.
 

ruston

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The bottom of page eleven may be of interest to you too . You have to read the doc before you pay,
.
 
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aidanb

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  • #32
For what its worth, my LABC specifically asks in the building regs application if electrical work will be carried out by registered contractor or not. If not, the cost is about £250 higher as they arrange it.
 
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