C3s putting you in harms way ??

[Soi disant]

Our instruction manual is mainly BS7671, which can be learned and an exam passed on knowledge of its contents, in a matter of a few days.

Strictly speaking an exam passed on being able to find things in the index....

 

[Dartlec]

As I have said, these guides can be useful, but it seems many newly qualified electricians are setting themselves up to do EICRs, using ONLY these guides to help them make their recommendations (because they lack the necessary experience), and getting it very wrong in many cases.

I completely agree with this - but have also seen reports from supposedly experienced well qualified inspectors who have got it just as wrong, so it is not necessarily just the lack of experience, but a wider issue - probably involving training, CPD, guidance from others, market pressure on cost/time, how society sees the 'profession' etc.

 

[loz2754]

I completely agree with this - but have also seen reports from supposedly experienced well qualified inspectors who have got it just as wrong, so it is not necessarily just the lack of experience, but a wider issue - probably involving training, CPD, guidance from others, market pressure on cost/time, how society sees the 'profession' etc.

I agree @Dartlec. Correct and appropriate training is an absolute must. Coupled with the experience.
Some have the training and qualifications, but not the experience.
Experience is pretty much useless without a bedrock of training/qualifications.
The two go hand in hand.

A good point too about market pressure.

 

[Dartlec]

I agree @Dartlec. Correct and appropriate training is an absolute must. Coupled with the experience.
Some have the training and qualifications, but not the experience.
Experience is pretty much useless without a bedrock of training/qualifications.
The two go hand in hand.

A good point too about market pressure.

Would probably just be a pain, but I think it would be good to have some form of CPD implemented. They have started asking on annual inspections now, but other professions (like Lawyers) have to prove they are keeping up with current good practice in their sector. (Could be separate for Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, Rental inspections, etc)

Then the argument would still be about who is authoritative to provide that of course - no use if NAPIT run a paid course on EICR coding which contradicts what the NICEIC one says....

 

[old man sparky]

Hot potato waiting to find somewhere to land.

 

[UNG]

Would probably just be a pain, but I think it would be good to have some form of CPD implemented. They have started asking on annual inspections now, but other professions (like Lawyers) have to prove they are keeping up with current good practice in their sector. (Could be separate for Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, Rental inspections, etc)

It seems the current model is divide everything into separate little fields and create a course, qualification and a CPS for it, why does it need to be divided up into separate sections if you are qualified and experienced as an electrician then you are an electrician if you chose to follow some defined limited scope training then you are not an electrician. We don't have a BS7671 part XX for each individual area of electrical work so why define separate areas of work

Then the argument would still be about who is authoritative to provide that of course - no use if NAPIT run a paid course on EICR coding which contradicts what the NICEIC one says....

I would say neither of them are while they are playing to the balance sheet to the detriment of the skills within the trade and the public wanting to employ a "skilled electrician", the waiting game now is who will reign supreme and take over the other IMO

The NICEIC, NAPIT and the other CPS's have had their day and are failing the industry we really need something similar to the Gassafe model where the HSE oversees the register of of individual skilled persons not like the current NICEIC / NAPIT system where companies are assessed as competent. The closest we possibly have at the moment for individuals is the JIB grading system and ECS card

 

[old man sparky]

Mind you with the ecs cards health and safety 3 yearly exam your really going to sort the wood from the trees. Only the best of the best would pass that one. One of the most exhaustive in the trade.
Am I taking the pee ? You better believe it ??
Any way I have the gold card AND the platinum so there. Actually platinum is the old one its black now. How amazing am I ???

 

[David Anthony]

Mind you with the ecs cards health and safety 3 yearly exam your really going to sort the wood from the trees. Only the best of the best would pass that one. One of the most exhaustive in the trade.
Am I taking the pee ? You better believe it ??

I had one guy present an IET membership card. He had no training, Certification or experience. I wasn't very polite.

 

[old man sparky]

I had one guy present an IET membership card. He had no training, Certification or experience. I wasn't very polite.

To be fair, getting the Approved Electrician Gold needs to satisfy a reasonable set of criteria. The black Electrical Site Manager is deemed NVQ level 6 whatever that means these days. I managed to get the latter because they were so impressed with my Dewalt Zimmer frame ?

 

[Lister1987]

We don't have a BS7671 part XX for each individual area of electrical work so why define separate areas of work

Closest we have is Part 7 but I wouldnt be against either addition to this or a new part for the electrical sides of things like 5839, 7375 etc systems - pulled from the related standards.

 

[Soi disant]

It seems the current model is divide everything into separate little fields and create a course, qualification and a CPS for it, why does it need to be divided up into separate sections if you are qualified and experienced as an electrician then you are an electrician if you chose to follow some defined limited scope training then you are not an electrician. We don't have a BS7671 part XX for each individual area of electrical work so why define separate areas of work

There is nothing necessarily wrong with separate areas of scope, but unfortunately in this context the concept of "limited scope" has come to mean plumbers trained to remember the difference between blue, brown,and g/y 2 times out of 3.

You don't expect your GP to be able to carry out brain surgery.

You don't worry if the guy driving the bus you're in isn't qualified to drive 30 tonne lorries.

Maybe it is worth thinking about whether it might be easier to raise standards if they were more granular, if there was something between "can point to a photo of a screwdriver and identify the handle" and "can do absolutely everything".

By its very nature, experience becomes "defined and limited", so would it in principle be a bad thing if training and qualifications did likewise? It certainly isn't when it comes to experience - for example, who would most people rather have to rewire their house, someone with 20 years experience of doing that without destroying the decor, or someone with 40 years experience of nothing but factories, workshops, oil rigs, and power stations?

I would say neither of them are while they are playing to the balance sheet to the detriment of the skills within the trade and the public wanting to employ a "skilled electrician", the waiting game now is who will reign supreme and take over the other IMO

The NICEIC, NAPIT and the other CPS's have had their day and are failing the industry we really need something similar to the Gassafe model where the HSE oversees the register of of individual skilled persons not like the current NICEIC / NAPIT system where companies are assessed as competent. The closest we possibly have at the moment for individuals is the JIB grading system and ECS card

 

[UNG]

There is nothing necessarily wrong with separate areas of scope, but unfortunately in this context the concept of "limited scope" has come to mean plumbers trained to remember the difference between blue, brown,and g/y 2 times out of 3.

Open your eyes and take a good hard look at the electrical industry and you will find it isn't working already, yes we had the NICEIC's defined scope many years ago and that was the start of the crack moving on it is not all that clear what is needed to be a D.I. recognised by a CPS as competent to carry out electrical work

You don't expect your GP to be able to carry out brain surgery.

I expect him to have sufficient knowledge of all areas of medicine to point me in the direction of the right specialist, although my old GP was an ex surgeon who changed direction and went into general practice and actually did some minor surgery work at the practice a few afternoons every month

You don't worry if the guy driving the bus you're in isn't qualified to drive 30 tonne lorries.

Not quite sure what your point is, although I do know an electrician who got out of the trade changed his day job and does have a licence to drive buses and when you look at a bus it is truck chassis with a container mounted on it to transport people which may get to 30 ton depending on how obese the passengers are

Maybe it is worth thinking about whether it might be easier to raise standards if they were more granular, if there was something between "can point to a photo of a screwdriver and identify the handle" and "can do absolutely everything".

Isn't that what we have had for the last 15 years fragmented and partial qualifications and standards have dropped through the floor maybe if we rewound the clock by 30 years and maintained the standards and levels of training then I doubt we would be even talking about this now

By its very nature, experience becomes "defined and limited", so would it in principle be a bad thing if training and qualifications did likewise? It certainly isn't when it comes to experience - for example, who would most people rather have to rewire their house, someone with 20 years experience of doing that without destroying the decor, or someone with 40 years experience of nothing but factories, workshops, oil rigs, and power stations?

Are you really suggesting that experience is not interchangeable across different sectors of the industry if so you are greatly misguided, I have had 45 years in the electrical industry as a contracting electrician across many different sectors covering industrial, pharmaceutical, commercial, healthcare and domestic to name a few and they have all added something to my available skill set. During my apprenticeship I worked with some very knowledgeable and experienced electricians which gave me a good grounding to build my own skills
Your experience of this industry is clearly very shallow with regard to the rewire the guy with 40 years factory, power station etc experience every time the job will be done with total over kill I have seen a lot of them work the only thing that more often than not frightens them off rewires is the farce that is Part P