Category for lack of RCD on sockets in 27 year old building

[Russell Moss]

There is a difference of opinion in that a testing company carrying out an EICR has classed lack of RCD protection as a C2 where I understand this type of fault to be a C3 according to Guidance Notes 3 Table 3.5. Their opinion has been formed in reference to a publication called EICR Code Breakers as per the attachment. I had not heard of this book previously and have ordered a copy to see if there is something there I am unaware of but whilst I wait for delivery I thought I would throw it out there to see if anyone else has experience of this?

The building was erected early to mid nineties I would guess it came under 16th edition amendment 2. I am pretty sure it is mostly in galvanised and earthed conduit though I don't know every inch and therefore the reference to PVC/PVC may be correct in some instances. As far as I can see there are no high readings in the test certs that would mean the MCB protection is compromised.

Your thoughts appreciated

 

[telectrix]

sockets that may be used outside is a C2. general sockets can be either C2 or C3, down to the inspector's judgement.

 

[UNG]

What type of building is this in, galvanised conduit suggests something that is commercial or industrial

 

[David Prosser]

Why not just fit an RCD socket. Would of been quicker than posting on here.

 

[Russell Moss]

sockets that may be used outside is a C2. general sockets can be either C2 or C3, down to the inspector's judgement.

Thanks Telectrix. I will have to visit site and find the locations. It is a three storey office block so it would be unreasonable to assume anything above ground floor could be used for externals. I note your comment that it is up to the tester whether to record a C2 or C3.

 

[Russell Moss]

Why not just fit an RCD socket. Would of been quicker than posting on here.

In the first instance it is a query about whether I am wrong to assume this is a cat 3 but to answer your question, it is a 3 storey office block and the fault is recorded on nearly all circuits serving socket outlets, the estimate to correct the C2 is into the thousands.

 

[Russell Moss]

What type of building is this in, galvanised conduit suggests something that is commercial or industrial

Three storey offices

 

[Russell Moss]

Why not just fit an RCD socket. Would of been quicker than posting on here.

I should also have mentioned that a very real concern is that the circuits were not designed for RCDs at source so the office equipment is likely to cause nuisance tripping due to computers etc as circuits cover several offices. We may be talking additional circuits which could mean bigger DBs.

 

[UNG]

I should also have mentioned that a very real concern is that the circuits were not designed for RCDs at source so the office equipment is likely to cause nuisance tripping due to computers etc as circuits cover several offices. We may be talking additional circuits which could mean bigger DBs.

This was my reason for asking what type of building it was

Back then CRT computer monitors were the norm and they had a known leakage current which would limit the number of computers you could have on an RCD protected circuit in some cases the RCD's were omitted for that reason
With the move to LCD type monitors the high leakage currents have been eliminated

 

[Russell Moss]

This was my reason for asking what type of building it was

Back then CRT computer monitors were the norm and they had a known leakage current which would limit the number of computers you could have on an RCD protected circuit in some cases the RCD's were omitted for that reason
With the move to LCD type monitors the high leakage currents have been eliminated

Thank You UNG that is something I did not know. Very much appreciated.

 

[westward10]

I probably wouldn't use someone who uses a Codebreakers Guide and considering this is a commercial office building they should have sufficient competence and be able to use their own judgement, that said it doesn't necessarily mean a Code 2 would not be issued but in my opinion and from what you say I think most people would quote Code 3.

 

[UNG]

I think this thread demonstrates how the industry has changed as RCBO's were relatively unheard of 27 years ago and a single RCD protecting multiple circuits was more the norm and not really suitable for offices with a lot of computers

 

[Russell Moss]

I probably wouldn't use someone who uses a Codebreakers Guide and considering this is a commercial office building they should have sufficient competence and be able to use their own judgement, that said it doesn't necessarily mean a Code 2 would not be issued but in my opinion and from what you say I think most people would quote Code 3.

Thanks Westward, your comments on the code breakers is the general consensus elsewhere. Unfortunately that was out of my control, I have had it tested in the past via a company that uses the regs and this was raised as a code 3 which I agree with. Don't get me wrong, if I thought for one moment the installation was in any way dangerous I would be more than happy to get the work done.

 

[Russell Moss]

I think this thread demonstrates how the industry has changed as RCBO's were relatively unheard of 27 years ago and a single RCD protecting multiple circuits was more the norm and not really suitable for offices with a lot of computers

The thing baffling me is the statement in the regulations that says they are not retrospective. If the circuits were compliant at time of install (they were), passes all tests for the MCB to operate correctly (they do) then I interpret that it should only be a recommendation to upgrade not compulsory unless there are other factors in the area that dictate. In general it is a very tidy installation, well looked after, regularly inspected, it was only tested by another company a few years ago and was a code 3 then (this test has been ordered by others).

 

[westward10]

Ask them in their opinion how this is an urgent situation.

 

[Russell Moss]

Ask them in their opinion how this is an urgent situation.

From my limited discussions with them I believe the CAT2 is dictated by the Code Breakers advice without consideration of any other factors. I am not sure whether they are even aware that the regulation referred to revolves around protection from impact rather an electrical requirement. Nor do I think they realise that reg 522.6.202 goes on to say an RCD is required unless reg 522.6.204 is applicable, i.e. cables contained in an earthed metallic enclosure which I think is the case here. At the end of the day as Telectrix stated, its the inspectors opinion that counts so looks like I will have to bite the bullet.

 

[westward10]

It is their opinion but if you compile a technical document then you must be able to validate its content and if they cannot do this then you must question their competence to carry out such works.

 

[Russell Moss]

It is their opinion but if you compile a technical document then you must be able to validate its content and if they cannot do this then you must question their competence to carry out such works.

Thanks Westward, certainly an avenue to explore when i meet with them on Monday.

 

[flyman70]

Hi Russell you can get free down loads from electrical safety first look at guidance document 4.
If the sockets can be used for outside power ie lawn mowers and the like it's c2 if not c3 . It's upto the enginer on the day as long as they can justify the code.

 

[telectrix]

according to the regs/.nothing to do with any code breakers or other irrelevant publications, it's clear as a bell.

immediate danger e.g exposed live parts).......C1

potiential danger, e.g. danger present if some other action compromised safety, ........ C2

no appearent danger, but not compliant with current regs. ........ C3.

what's the problem?