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What is it and what does it involve getting one.
I am a qualified leccy to the 16th edition of the regs.
For the last ten years I have been living in France as a card carrying leccy.
I am in the throes of having an extension built on to our bungalow and will be doing the electrics myself.
We have just had to return the 'start up' form to the building regs people. The bottom bit of the form asks who is doing the electrics ie what company or if its not a company does the person doing the work have a certificate of competency.
So what is this certificate and how does one get I get one?
I have been on to the buildings regs site and it says
Quote:

  • Competent persons who only infrequently carry out work in domestic premises need not register with a competent persons self-certification scheme. However if they are not registered they must notify building control before carrying out the work and should meet all of the requirements of BS 7671 regarding design, installation, inspection and testing, and certification.
  • DIY electrical work is not to be encouraged, however where a householder wishes to carry out electrical work they must notify building control before commencing work. Building control will arrange for the work to be, inspected and tested at various stages and will charge a fee to cover any costs incurred.
There is no requirement to join a scheme. It will be perfectly acceptable to submit building notices to the local authority. It will be a matter for each individual electrical contracting firm to decide which of the above two routes to compliance would be best for their business.

So??
 
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Basically, if you are not a member of a competent person scheme (part P registered), then you must get your local building control involved in any notifiable electrical work, and they will sign it off. This will cost a fee which varies between councils.
Btw, we work to the 17th edition of the regs now (1st amendment).

To join a CPS you will need several things, including the C&G 17th edition certificate, 2 million pounds public liability, calibrated test equipment, plus numerous other things. You also have to have notifiable work to show them for your half-day assessment.
The 3 main scheme providers are Elecsa, NICEIC and NAPIT. If you look on their websites, you will see what is needed.
 
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  • #3
Yes I know that todays leccys work to the 17th edition so is that a problem me being qualified to the 16th edition?
I thought it was just a matter of buying a 17th edition and boning up on the amendments what ever they are.
Electricity is electricity.
OK so geezer turns up to inspect and sign off so whats he inspecting?
Yes I know he's doing instalation checks but he must check specifics?
 
Yes I know that todays leccys work to the 17th edition so is that a problem me being qualified to the 16th edition?
I thought it was just a matter of buying a 17th edition and boning up on the amendments what ever they are.
Electricity is electricity.

OK so geezer turns up to inspect and sign off so whats he inspecting?
Yes I know he's doing instalation checks but he must check specifics?
You seem to have it all sorted then :)
 
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  • #5
You seem to have it all sorted then :)
Not necessarily thats why I asked the question.
So anyone qualified to the 16th edition and no longer able to do leccy work then is that what you are saying?
I'm happy doing the work I just don't want some jobsworth giving me grief.
So does that mean If I need a cert of competence I have to be a millionaire?
 
If you don't know the 17th Ed Wiring regulations then you may not install correctly - things have changed!

If you chose to do it then as you have found out you must tell building control, and then with the fee you pay them they will get another electrician to test/inspect your work. In some cases you fees don't cover the BC costs so they may not even send an electrician out.

You can always call BC and discuss, explain your experience etc.
 
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  • #7
If you don't know the 17th Ed Wiring regulations then you may not install correctly - things have changed!

If you chose to do it then as you have found out you must tell building control, and then with the fee you pay them they will get another electrician to test/inspect your work. In some cases you fees don't cover the BC costs so they may not even send an electrician out.

You can always call BC and discuss, explain your experience etc.
OK so things change.
I'm wiring up a kitchen and utility room.
The kitchen is having a dedicated ring mainin 2.5 TWE. Sockets at work top level powered by 32 amp MCB.
Dedicated cooker circuit 16 mm with 40 amp MCB. Utility room for freezer dedicated circuit of 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB. Washing machine the same dedicated circuit 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB.
Storage heater circuit again 2.5 TWE with 20 amp MCB.Lighting is already there as it was a sun room before its conversion but may be re vamped in 1.5 TWE to the existing lighting circuit.
I shall earth bond the water pipes back to the source.
Missed anything?
 
OK so things change.
I'm wiring up a kitchen and utility room.
The kitchen is having a dedicated ring mainin 2.5 TWE. Sockets at work top level powered by 32 amp MCB.
Dedicated cooker circuit 16 mm with 40 amp MCB. Utility room for freezer dedicated circuit of 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB. Washing machine the same dedicated circuit 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB.
Storage heater circuit again 2.5 TWE with 20 amp MCB.Lighting is already there as it was a sun room before its conversion but may be re vamped in 1.5 TWE to the existing lighting circuit.
I shall earth bond the water pipes back to the source.
Missed anything?
RCD protection for all sockets (although you can omit for specifically labelled sockets that supply specific appliance(s) eg. freezer) and concealed cables.
Got a tester to fill out cert?

16mm for a 40A MCB is a bit extreme?
 
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  • #9
Yep you are right 10mm will do for the cooker not thinking.
Yes to RCDs
Nope I haven't a 'tester' I have a Fluke.
The question still is what do you need to get a cert of Competence.
 

ruston

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Yep you are right 10mm will do for the cooker not thinking.
Yes to RCDs
Nope I haven't a 'tester' I have a Fluke.
The question still is what do you need to get a cert of Competence.
The building inspector may be happy with your qualifications . You only need to be competent. If he decides you are not competent he may get a third party to inspect and test it . If you have paid a notification fee the they will have to bear the cost of this ,not you.
It's in the part P document , you can download it free from the government site.Planning Portal - Approved Document P


.
 

telectrix

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hang on. first, you don't have to be a scam member to do this work, as the extension is subject to planning . therefore you don't have to pay a LABC fee, it's inclusive with the planning application. what you will probably find is that LABC will only accept you as competent if you have taken and passed the 2382. 17th Edition.
 
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  • #12
So what about the 'leccies' that are out there that got their qualifications in the 80s when I got mine ie to the 16th edition of the regs? Are you saying they are not employed as their qualifications aren't acceptable?
Thats why are asked how you get a cert of competence.
 

ruston

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No , not saying that .Part P only applies to domestic . Read part P from the link I gave you . It tells you in there how you can comply, ie join a competent persons or go through the LABC route. It's all in there.:present:
 
I have already given you the websites to look at regarding what is required, along with a few other members who have given you excellent advice. I'm afraid that the confrontational way you are firing back your questions doesn't really encourage me to continue in this thread.
All the best.
 
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  • #15
Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.
 

ruston

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Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.

Good , but you just need to read the section on notification to give you the gist. You should be OK , it just depends who you get , some of them are ok . Best of luck anyway. Part P misses everyone of anyway , you are not alone lol.


I see I've hit the M isted of the P.
 
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Des 56

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You are in the infancy of discovering that one way or another,whichever route you take,you now have to pay for the privelege of doing the work you were trained to do in the first instance

If that aint enough,you may yet have to face up to the scenario of someone, trained in a matter of days or weeks,overseeing and supervising your installation skills

Welcome to the UK electricians world post part p
 
Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.
I'm sure that you are more than capable of doing the work yourself, but the law has changed so that you can still do the work if you so wish, but there is an inspection fee involved (as the council do not know if you have your 17th edition qualification/public liability insurance/calibrated test gear). For the vast majority of professional electricians, it is more cost effective and easier to pay our scheme membership and undergo the yearly assessment, along with all the other expenses, than it is to get LBC out for every notifiable job.
Don't get me wrong here... I don't think the part P fiasco works anywhere near the way it is supposed to, but we are stuck with it, so we either conform or break the law. Sadly, I am law abiding (hence not rich).
If you have a look at the Elecsa website (see post #2), it explains fairly succinctly what is required to become a member of a "competent persons scheme".
 
G

Guest55

Well after 10 years in France you've missed that joyous invention known as part p.
oh dear lol , youre not gonna a like it :)
I'd be straight back to lovely sunny France and their much simpler electricians licencing system.
 
O

oldtimer

Why did you come back ? and you should have moved to Scotland why ? no Part Peeeeeing
 
G

Guest55

Why did you come back ? and you should have moved to Scotland why ? no Part Peeeeeing
France or Scotland ? hmm let me see , 6 month summers , monaco , world class wine £4 a bottle , hot continental totty.
Or Glasgow with rain.
:-D
 
O

oldtimer

Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 

ruston

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Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Lol I can remember when last orders was Half nine.
 
Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Never mind mate. Come the vote, you can ditch us English and our crazy laws altogether :)
 

Des 56

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Never mind mate. Come the vote, you can ditch us English and our crazy laws altogether :)

I would have no more time for the Jocks if they decide to depart leaving the Irish and Welsh to moan about the English on their own :19:

Can't there just be a vote to kick England out of the UK instead :clap:


Only joking fellas,I hope this wont stop you from continuing to post us your tax monies :drool5:
 
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  • #28
Well after 10 years in France you've missed that joyous invention known as part p.
oh dear lol , youre not gonna a like it :)
I'd be straight back to lovely sunny France and their much simpler electricians licencing system.
Yes you are right but new installations and major refurbs need to be signed off before EDF put the electrics on. Also when any and every house that is sold a 'diagnostic' is done the inspector pointing out to the house holder their electrical defiencies. A lot of our work revolved around putting these wrongs to right.
Thanks again for the help and advice.
Just a question afore I go. Why in TWE cable is the earth still a smaller diameter than the current carrying cables and why is it not sheathed? I thought they would have addressed that in their attempts at being finnicky!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
France or Scotland ? hmm let me see , 6 month summers , monaco , world class wine £4 a bottle , hot continental totty.
Or Glasgow with rain.
:-D
Ah it does get cold in the winter -16 in the Limousin, Charente, Correze etc. Beers crap. Not every one likes wine and contrary to public believe there are a lot of fat ugly French women!
 
Just a question afore I go. Why in TWE cable is the earth still a smaller diameter than the current carrying cables and why is it not sheathed? I thought they would have addressed that in their attempts at being finnicky!
The cpc is not insulated, but it is sheathed in T&E. That is considered adequate when part of a cable.
The cpc is allowed to be smaller in fixed installation cables such as T&E because using the adiabatic equation, it is assumed that the duration of the earth fault current is so short that none of the heat energy produced in the protective conductor escapes before the protective device operates. Although not entirely accurate, it is close enough to satisfy BS7671.

Hope that helps :)
 
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  • #31
The cpc is not insulated, but it is sheathed in T&E. That is considered adequate when part of a cable.
The cpc is allowed to be smaller in fixed installation cables such as T&E because using the adiabatic equation, it is assumed that the duration of the earth fault current is so short that none of the heat energy produced in the protective conductor escapes before the protective device operates. Although not entirely accurate, it is close enough to satisfy BS7671.

Hope that helps :)
Excellent answer and true we hope RCDs will operate at 30 or 40 mA but.....the earth in T&E has always been a smaller dia than the current carrying cables longgggg before RCDs ELCBs were considered a necessity and there is still the question of an un sheathed cale. So what you are saying is if you buy a piece of general purpose three core to wire up a a piece of electrical equipment the earthy core is already sheathed in the outer sheath and there fore a seperate sheath is not necessary. But it is sheathed!:wink_smile:

Surely its not that difficult to put a sheath around it? It would take away the necessity to sheath it at either end when making off. Well as an old stager thats my believe.
Having 'leccy'd' in France a lot of what the French leccy's do is far and away better to the way Brits do it and having a sheathed earth of the same diameter as the current carrying cables is one of 'em.
Sorry being pedantic again I'll get me coat!
Fred
 
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Yee gorrabe aad, I can remember 10:30 being kicking out time when I was about 14/15 but not 9:30
Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
 

ruston

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Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
Aye I'm going back to when I was a bairn in the 50's , not to far away from you as it happens . I was talking about Scotland though Trev, rang the bell at half nine and drink off before twenty to ten. Then they used to go back to me grannies with the "carryoot".
 
O

oldtimer

Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
Yep and if you wanted a drink on a Sunday you had to go to a hotel as all pubs were closed aye those were the days
 

Des 56

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Arms
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In Wales,a county could be sunday closed and next door could be open,a pub one side of the river would be 10-30 stop tap,the pub on the other side 11-00

The stampede over the bridge just after 10-30 from the closing pub would have run Bolt a close second
 
rodgearing;589711 So what you are saying is if you buy a piece of general purpose three core to wire up a a piece of electrical equipment the earthy core is already sheathed in the outer sheath and there fore a seperate sheath is not necessary. But it is sheathed!:wink_smile: Surely its not that difficult to put a sheath around it? It would take away the necessity to sheath it at either end when making off. Well as an old stager thats my believe. Having 'leccy'd' in France a lot of what the French leccy's do is far and away better to the way Brits do it and having a sheathed earth of the same diameter as the current carrying cables is one of 'em. Sorry being pedantic again I'll get me coat! Fred[/QUOTE said:
Using twin and earth, when stripping back you must always sleeve the earth with green/yellow sleeving in the back box (or whatever)!
 
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  • #40
Using twin and earth, when stripping back you must always sleeve the earth with green/yellow sleeving in the back box (or whatever)!
Yes I know that. 50 years experience!
My statement was about the fact that the earth wire in T&E was not already sheathed.
 

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