Discuss Certificate of competency in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

Status
Not open for further replies.

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
What is it and what does it involve getting one.
I am a qualified leccy to the 16th edition of the regs.
For the last ten years I have been living in France as a card carrying leccy.
I am in the throes of having an extension built on to our bungalow and will be doing the electrics myself.
We have just had to return the 'start up' form to the building regs people. The bottom bit of the form asks who is doing the electrics ie what company or if its not a company does the person doing the work have a certificate of competency.
So what is this certificate and how does one get I get one?
I have been on to the buildings regs site and it says
Quote:

  • Competent persons who only infrequently carry out work in domestic premises need not register with a competent persons self-certification scheme. However if they are not registered they must notify building control before carrying out the work and should meet all of the requirements of BS 7671 regarding design, installation, inspection and testing, and certification.
  • DIY electrical work is not to be encouraged, however where a householder wishes to carry out electrical work they must notify building control before commencing work. Building control will arrange for the work to be, inspected and tested at various stages and will charge a fee to cover any costs incurred.
There is no requirement to join a scheme. It will be perfectly acceptable to submit building notices to the local authority. It will be a matter for each individual electrical contracting firm to decide which of the above two routes to compliance would be best for their business.

So??
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
Basically, if you are not a member of a competent person scheme (part P registered), then you must get your local building control involved in any notifiable electrical work, and they will sign it off. This will cost a fee which varies between councils.
Btw, we work to the 17th edition of the regs now (1st amendment).

To join a CPS you will need several things, including the C&G 17th edition certificate, 2 million pounds public liability, calibrated test equipment, plus numerous other things. You also have to have notifiable work to show them for your half-day assessment.
The 3 main scheme providers are Elecsa, NICEIC and NAPIT. If you look on their websites, you will see what is needed.
 
Last edited:
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
Yes I know that todays leccys work to the 17th edition so is that a problem me being qualified to the 16th edition?
I thought it was just a matter of buying a 17th edition and boning up on the amendments what ever they are.
Electricity is electricity.
OK so geezer turns up to inspect and sign off so whats he inspecting?
Yes I know he's doing instalation checks but he must check specifics?
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
Yes I know that todays leccys work to the 17th edition so is that a problem me being qualified to the 16th edition?
I thought it was just a matter of buying a 17th edition and boning up on the amendments what ever they are.
Electricity is electricity.

OK so geezer turns up to inspect and sign off so whats he inspecting?
Yes I know he's doing instalation checks but he must check specifics?
You seem to have it all sorted then :)
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
You seem to have it all sorted then :)
Not necessarily thats why I asked the question.
So anyone qualified to the 16th edition and no longer able to do leccy work then is that what you are saying?
I'm happy doing the work I just don't want some jobsworth giving me grief.
So does that mean If I need a cert of competence I have to be a millionaire?
 

yellowvanman

Electrician's Arms
Solar Guru
Messages
1,283
Location
Dorset
If you don't know the 17th Ed Wiring regulations then you may not install correctly - things have changed!

If you chose to do it then as you have found out you must tell building control, and then with the fee you pay them they will get another electrician to test/inspect your work. In some cases you fees don't cover the BC costs so they may not even send an electrician out.

You can always call BC and discuss, explain your experience etc.
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
If you don't know the 17th Ed Wiring regulations then you may not install correctly - things have changed!

If you chose to do it then as you have found out you must tell building control, and then with the fee you pay them they will get another electrician to test/inspect your work. In some cases you fees don't cover the BC costs so they may not even send an electrician out.

You can always call BC and discuss, explain your experience etc.
OK so things change.
I'm wiring up a kitchen and utility room.
The kitchen is having a dedicated ring mainin 2.5 TWE. Sockets at work top level powered by 32 amp MCB.
Dedicated cooker circuit 16 mm with 40 amp MCB. Utility room for freezer dedicated circuit of 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB. Washing machine the same dedicated circuit 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB.
Storage heater circuit again 2.5 TWE with 20 amp MCB.Lighting is already there as it was a sun room before its conversion but may be re vamped in 1.5 TWE to the existing lighting circuit.
I shall earth bond the water pipes back to the source.
Missed anything?
 

yellowvanman

Electrician's Arms
Solar Guru
Messages
1,283
Location
Dorset
OK so things change.
I'm wiring up a kitchen and utility room.
The kitchen is having a dedicated ring mainin 2.5 TWE. Sockets at work top level powered by 32 amp MCB.
Dedicated cooker circuit 16 mm with 40 amp MCB. Utility room for freezer dedicated circuit of 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB. Washing machine the same dedicated circuit 2.5 TWE with 16 or 20 amp MCB.
Storage heater circuit again 2.5 TWE with 20 amp MCB.Lighting is already there as it was a sun room before its conversion but may be re vamped in 1.5 TWE to the existing lighting circuit.
I shall earth bond the water pipes back to the source.
Missed anything?
RCD protection for all sockets (although you can omit for specifically labelled sockets that supply specific appliance(s) eg. freezer) and concealed cables.
Got a tester to fill out cert?

16mm for a 40A MCB is a bit extreme?
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
Yep you are right 10mm will do for the cooker not thinking.
Yes to RCDs
Nope I haven't a 'tester' I have a Fluke.
The question still is what do you need to get a cert of Competence.
 

ruston

Respected Member
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
5,539
Location
Northumberland
Yep you are right 10mm will do for the cooker not thinking.
Yes to RCDs
Nope I haven't a 'tester' I have a Fluke.
The question still is what do you need to get a cert of Competence.
The building inspector may be happy with your qualifications . You only need to be competent. If he decides you are not competent he may get a third party to inspect and test it . If you have paid a notification fee the they will have to bear the cost of this ,not you.
It's in the part P document , you can download it free from the government site.Planning Portal - Approved Document P


.
 

telectrix

Disrespected Scouser
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
63,525
Location
cheshire/staffordshire
hang on. first, you don't have to be a scam member to do this work, as the extension is subject to planning . therefore you don't have to pay a LABC fee, it's inclusive with the planning application. what you will probably find is that LABC will only accept you as competent if you have taken and passed the 2382. 17th Edition.
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
So what about the 'leccies' that are out there that got their qualifications in the 80s when I got mine ie to the 16th edition of the regs? Are you saying they are not employed as their qualifications aren't acceptable?
Thats why are asked how you get a cert of competence.
 

ruston

Respected Member
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
5,539
Location
Northumberland
No , not saying that .Part P only applies to domestic . Read part P from the link I gave you . It tells you in there how you can comply, ie join a competent persons or go through the LABC route. It's all in there.:present:
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
I have already given you the websites to look at regarding what is required, along with a few other members who have given you excellent advice. I'm afraid that the confrontational way you are firing back your questions doesn't really encourage me to continue in this thread.
All the best.
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.
 

ruston

Respected Member
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
5,539
Location
Northumberland
Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.

Good , but you just need to read the section on notification to give you the gist. You should be OK , it just depends who you get , some of them are ok . Best of luck anyway. Part P misses everyone of anyway , you are not alone lol.


I see I've hit the M isted of the P.
 
Last edited:

Des 56

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Messages
7,688
Location
Gliese 581C
You are in the infancy of discovering that one way or another,whichever route you take,you now have to pay for the privelege of doing the work you were trained to do in the first instance

If that aint enough,you may yet have to face up to the scenario of someone, trained in a matter of days or weeks,overseeing and supervising your installation skills

Welcome to the UK electricians world post part p
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
Thankyou for your responses it is appreciated. I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
I understand that things have changed. I accept change but I don't accept having to pay someone exortionate amounts of money to do a job I am perfectly capable of doing myself.
I have downloaded the pdf file attributed to the site you gave me the link to. Thankyou. I admit I haven't read the 49 pages but will.
Again thankyou. Et bon chance.
I'm sure that you are more than capable of doing the work yourself, but the law has changed so that you can still do the work if you so wish, but there is an inspection fee involved (as the council do not know if you have your 17th edition qualification/public liability insurance/calibrated test gear). For the vast majority of professional electricians, it is more cost effective and easier to pay our scheme membership and undergo the yearly assessment, along with all the other expenses, than it is to get LBC out for every notifiable job.
Don't get me wrong here... I don't think the part P fiasco works anywhere near the way it is supposed to, but we are stuck with it, so we either conform or break the law. Sadly, I am law abiding (hence not rich).
If you have a look at the Elecsa website (see post #2), it explains fairly succinctly what is required to become a member of a "competent persons scheme".
 
G

Guest55

Well after 10 years in France you've missed that joyous invention known as part p.
oh dear lol , youre not gonna a like it :)
I'd be straight back to lovely sunny France and their much simpler electricians licencing system.
 
G

Guest55

Why did you come back ? and you should have moved to Scotland why ? no Part Peeeeeing
France or Scotland ? hmm let me see , 6 month summers , monaco , world class wine £4 a bottle , hot continental totty.
Or Glasgow with rain.
:-D
 

oldtimer

Regular EF Member
Messages
4,313
Location
Edinburgh
Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 

ruston

Respected Member
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
5,539
Location
Northumberland
Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Lol I can remember when last orders was Half nine.
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
Yep remember the auld alliance between Scotland and France a lot of our laws are the same and we were not daft enough to take on part Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Never mind mate. Come the vote, you can ditch us English and our crazy laws altogether :)
 

Des 56

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Messages
7,688
Location
Gliese 581C
Never mind mate. Come the vote, you can ditch us English and our crazy laws altogether :)

I would have no more time for the Jocks if they decide to depart leaving the Irish and Welsh to moan about the English on their own :19:

Can't there just be a vote to kick England out of the UK instead :clap:


Only joking fellas,I hope this wont stop you from continuing to post us your tax monies :drool5:
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
Well after 10 years in France you've missed that joyous invention known as part p.
oh dear lol , youre not gonna a like it :)
I'd be straight back to lovely sunny France and their much simpler electricians licencing system.
Yes you are right but new installations and major refurbs need to be signed off before EDF put the electrics on. Also when any and every house that is sold a 'diagnostic' is done the inspector pointing out to the house holder their electrical defiencies. A lot of our work revolved around putting these wrongs to right.
Thanks again for the help and advice.
Just a question afore I go. Why in TWE cable is the earth still a smaller diameter than the current carrying cables and why is it not sheathed? I thought they would have addressed that in their attempts at being finnicky!
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
France or Scotland ? hmm let me see , 6 month summers , monaco , world class wine £4 a bottle , hot continental totty.
Or Glasgow with rain.
:-D
Ah it does get cold in the winter -16 in the Limousin, Charente, Correze etc. Beers crap. Not every one likes wine and contrary to public believe there are a lot of fat ugly French women!
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
Messages
5,250
Location
Norfolk
Just a question afore I go. Why in TWE cable is the earth still a smaller diameter than the current carrying cables and why is it not sheathed? I thought they would have addressed that in their attempts at being finnicky!
The cpc is not insulated, but it is sheathed in T&E. That is considered adequate when part of a cable.
The cpc is allowed to be smaller in fixed installation cables such as T&E because using the adiabatic equation, it is assumed that the duration of the earth fault current is so short that none of the heat energy produced in the protective conductor escapes before the protective device operates. Although not entirely accurate, it is close enough to satisfy BS7671.

Hope that helps :)
 
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
The cpc is not insulated, but it is sheathed in T&E. That is considered adequate when part of a cable.
The cpc is allowed to be smaller in fixed installation cables such as T&E because using the adiabatic equation, it is assumed that the duration of the earth fault current is so short that none of the heat energy produced in the protective conductor escapes before the protective device operates. Although not entirely accurate, it is close enough to satisfy BS7671.

Hope that helps :)
Excellent answer and true we hope RCDs will operate at 30 or 40 mA but.....the earth in T&E has always been a smaller dia than the current carrying cables longgggg before RCDs ELCBs were considered a necessity and there is still the question of an un sheathed cale. So what you are saying is if you buy a piece of general purpose three core to wire up a a piece of electrical equipment the earthy core is already sheathed in the outer sheath and there fore a seperate sheath is not necessary. But it is sheathed!:wink_smile:

Surely its not that difficult to put a sheath around it? It would take away the necessity to sheath it at either end when making off. Well as an old stager thats my believe.
Having 'leccy'd' in France a lot of what the French leccy's do is far and away better to the way Brits do it and having a sheathed earth of the same diameter as the current carrying cables is one of 'em.
Sorry being pedantic again I'll get me coat!
Fred
 
Last edited:
OP
R

rodgearing

Regular EF Member
Messages
50
Yee gorrabe aad, I can remember 10:30 being kicking out time when I was about 14/15 but not 9:30
Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
 

ruston

Respected Member
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
5,539
Location
Northumberland
Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
Aye I'm going back to when I was a bairn in the 50's , not to far away from you as it happens . I was talking about Scotland though Trev, rang the bell at half nine and drink off before twenty to ten. Then they used to go back to me grannies with the "carryoot".
 

oldtimer

Regular EF Member
Messages
4,313
Location
Edinburgh
Yer right. The drinking up bell used to sound at 10:00 and continue till 10:30 this was in the early 70s (I used to live in Clydebank!!)
Fred
Yep and if you wanted a drink on a Sunday you had to go to a hotel as all pubs were closed aye those were the days
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Permanent unswitched live colour?

  • Brown

    Votes: 63 67.0%
  • Black

    Votes: 31 33.0%

Electrician Talk

Top