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Hi All

I have a question regarding correct certification
I carried out some work which included a CCU change , New shed supply and final circuits , another new circuit and some replacement acessories so issued a EIC for additions and alterations to an existing

I have then had to go back and carry out urgent remedial work as there was L-N IR fault on the house lighting
couldnt rectify fault at time of above has had to seek permission from customer regarding removal of wood flooring and carpets so I isolated the circuit and locked off as well as informing the customer I had already rectified mutlipe loose connections and hidden connector blocks in loft under a ton of insualtion Not taped nothing the Resistance was apporaching 6 ohms

I then got permission to carry out the work as well as some additional work
So I traced the fault it was a Pendent base shoved under flooring above original half of kitchen the Neutral flex was jsut hanging by about 3 stranded Visible heat damage to it and the neutral terminal and the loops had nearly burned through to the neutrals on the 3 plate pendent base No lid even then connector blocks 2.5mm T/E looped in and out and more connector blocks with 1.0mm T/E to Gu10s installed at side of beams etc
It was done when He had his kitchen extended and a new fitted kitchen this is only one of many issues and faults I have found

So rewired, repositioned, removed from house lighting and added to existing kitchen circuit which is a kitchen extension
so as to create 1 circuit for all the kitchen and utility and remove some of the load from existing hosue lights
I also installed a new supply for existing outside lighting from a RCBO and installed 2 new FCUs 1 for existing soffit lights and 1 for existing security light

I have then replaced a wall fan like for like in bathroom but altered the wiring as it was previously fed from a shower circuit at the 30dp pull switch which has now been removed

so I have teken new feed from existing house lighting and installed a 3A FCU and then a 3 pole Isolator pull switch the load leg is the existing as couldnt change due to damge to decoration Ie tiles


Would you issue a EIC for the LOT
OR
Would you issue a EIC for the NEW supply to the existing outside lights
and 2 MEIWCs for the additions and alterations to the other circuits

I would Like your opinions on the certification you would issue as ELECSA and MY relevent books differ in whats certification is required
I thought EIC and so does some of my books but elecsa think otherwise
Thanks
 
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D

DurhamSparky

Eic for new circuits / Change in earthing
mw for the rest
 

telectrix

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the confusion here is that if the altered circuits are included on the SOTR on the EIC for the CU and new circuits, why issue separate MEWICs for them?
 
D

DurhamSparky

If all work was done around same time then just use Eic.....

Im on our lasses iPad in car so just skimming through posts!!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Hi Mate
Thats what ELECSA reckon

I issued a EIC for the SHED and CCU change
and then was going to issue a EIC for
the new supply to existing outsode lights and the alterations and additions

They reckon a EIC for the new supply
and MEIWCs for the additions alterations to existing

which would mean 3 seperate notifications jsut to work on 3 circuits as 1 is new suply and others are alterations in special locations or installations
Thought they were trying to reduce cost and burden of notification under part P

Christopher Kitchers Guide to I&T says a EIC for new circuit and were addditions and alterations to an existing or seperate MEIWCs for the additions and alterations
NIC inspection , testing and certification say a EIC

SO is A EIC solely FOR new installs , Rewires, CCU changes and NEW circuits or changing overcurrent charicteristics etc and not for any alterations or additions to existing circuits
 
If you have a look at the notes in appendix 6 of the BGB about an EIC you will see

"The Electrical Installation Certificate is to be used only for the initial certification of a new installation or for an addition or alteration to an existing installation where new circuits have been introduced"

For me it should have been EIC for thenew circuits and a MEIWC for the other.

IMO I would have thought that an EIC could have covered it all, and think that ELECSA are being a bit "Geeky" over this, but I suppose to the letter of the regulations they are right.

But then we do have the argument that appendixes apart from the first are informative rather than normative .................but that is another thread
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
I was under impression if doing a EIC for the supply to new circuit and carrying out other work then jsut issue for the lot

the SHED and CCU change I issed a EIC for but as there was a fault on lighting I had to then go back and carying out rectification as well as further work
 

telectrix

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Arms
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if elecsa want it, then just cut another tree down. anything left over, use for fuel on the fire. :smoking:
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
think they are jsut trying to generate more cash not to mention the trees that will be wasted lol
I suppose I will jsut have to do as ELECSA WANT as this will be this years job for assessment

I have already issued and notified the CCU change and shed supply

I was jsut going to notify again last week for this work but decided to ring them over this and a few other things lol and then after I explaned what i had done and was doing he said EIC for the new and MEIWCs for the additions and alterations

Can I use ELECSAs sample 3 circuit MEIWCs for the additions and alterations to save doing 3 certs and 3 notifications
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Last question on certs lol

when I am filling in the schedule of inspections If only carrying out work on 1 circuit is the items inspected Only for the circuit thats new or has had work carried out, Earthing , Bonding etc and not the whole installation Ie the other circuits
Ie No selv on this circuit so N/A
 
D

Deleted member 26818

There is no requirement in BS7671 to use a MEIWC.
You may use an MEIWC as an alternative to an EIC in instances where an addition or alteration affects only a single 'existing' circuit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Hi spin Thats what I thought If i was jsut doing a addition or alteration that didnt include a new circuit then would issue MEIWCs
But as I am doing a EIC for the NEW supply thought It was ok to just have it all on one EIC
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Hi spin Thats what I thought If i was jsut doing a addition or alteration that didnt include a new circuit then would issue MEIWCs
But as I am doing a EIC for the NEW supply thought It was ok to just have it all on one EIC
Yes, it sounds as if ELECSA just want to beef up their income.
Do they do a scheme where a reduced fee is paid for a limited number of notifications?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Hi spin wish they did as
since joining last year i have done less than 5 notifications and they haev sent me a letter stating this years fees will be taken on 10th sept my assessment is due end october
I received a email survey regarding there performance and comments on what i thought could be changed
I stated that they should also do a scheme for less than say 5 notifications then half the fees and if you need to notify ore in a single year then you pay the remaining difference

But i dont think they will

so when doing a job on one circuit when filling in the schedule of inspection on a EIC for new circuit do I jsut inspect that circuit and CCU earthing and bonding etc and tick the appropriate boxes
such as if selv is not present on the circuit N/A
or should i be inspecting the whole installation abd because selv is present on another circuit record a tick
 

Richard Burns

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You only complete the form for the work you are doing so do not include other circuits in the inspection, you can list the circuits on the SoTR for clarity but no test results.
SELV is unlikely to be ticked in any case as it will not be the sole protective measure as ADS will be still in operation even for ELV downlights.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

The EIC should describe the extent of the work covered by the Certificate.
You should only record the results of inspecting and testing the work covered by the EIC.
If you inspect and test any of the existing installation, then you are effectivly conducting a Periodic Inspection, something that the BS7671 prohibits an EIC being used for.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
HI mate
so if there is selv but as its also protected BY ADS then I dont need to tick the box for selv
or for example you have double insulated fan and LV downlights that are double insulated I wouldnt have to tick the box marked double insulation becuase of the ADS
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Spin so I just fill in the details applicable to the work i am carrying out and the circuit details and test results of the circuits i am working on
 
D

Deleted member 26818

You tick whatever boxes apply.
If you install an item of equipment that uses SELV, then you tick it.
With down lights, the cable feeding the transformer uses ADS, from the transformer to the downlight, SELV is used.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Thanks spin

I have installed a 230v ipx5 fan in zone 1 to replace the existing and its double insulated also

and as i have rewired and relocated the downlights in kitchen 230v GU!0s these are also double insulated so will tick the relevent box for double insualtion
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Thanks to all who have replied appreciate you taking the time to clear up my confusion

I will mither the elecsa guy to death when he comes lol and drop hints about reducing fees for minimal notifications as it costs me more to be registered and notify than it would to go through LABC lol
 
Let's not forget what the certs are there for... to record test results.
Common sense dictates that if you are carrying out a CU change, altering/adding circuits, then testing the whole lot to ensure it is safe and compliant, as long as what you have done is recorded on the EIC then I can't see the need for additional paperwork. It will all be recorded accurately and stated on the EIC.

All that said, if you do some work and notify it, then go back and do additional work, of course you will need to generate additional paperwork.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
Hi guitarist yes

I did a PIR last year but with lim on IR
then I have retested all circuits when doing the EIC for the NEW shed supply and CCU change a new circuit and some accesories replaced
then as there was a fault on lighting which i couldnt rectify immediatly i had to go back to sort that and at same time was asked to do some additioanl work

Wish they had jsut let me remove the floorring if needed in first place then i could have jsut issued a EICfor the Lot save laods of certs and notifications

cheers
 
1

1shortcircuit

Hi Bruce, I have only skimmed this thread but I would issue an EIC covering the lot if all of the work is notifiable. Reason being if you do an EIC and it's notifiable and a Minor Works that is also notifiable then that's two lots of notification.

If it's not notifiable then use a separate Minor Works certificate ;) :thumbsup
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Hi mate yes would be better but the elecsa tech guy seems to think otherwise
which will mean 3 certs and 3 notifications as its a new circuit and addition and alterations to 2 existing lighting circuits in special locations or installations eg Kitchen and bathroom
and the formfill software i have only issues a MEIWC for one circuit so i will require
1 EIC and MEIWCs
 
G

Guest55

Hi mate yes would be better but the elecsa tech guy seems to think otherwise
which will mean 3 certs and 3 notifications as its a new circuit and addition and alterations to 2 existing lighting circuits in special locations or installations eg Kitchen and bathroom
and the formfill software i have only issues a MEIWC for one circuit so i will require
1 EIC and MEIWCs
F**k what the elecsa guy thinks , the certs are for the benefit of the customer so he has a record of work done , not for the schemes to use as an excuse to make extra cash.
If all the work can be squeezed on 1 EIC then its less paperwork for you ;-)
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Another thing to consider, is how many notifications would be made if you were not part of a scheme.
Would you make multiple notifications for what is essentially one lot of work?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
reg 633.1 states that
the requirments of 631 and 632 for the ssue of an EIC OR a MEIWC shall apply to all the work of the additons and alterations
631.1upon completion of the verification of a new installation or changes to an existing installation,
An EIC based on blah blah
631.2 upon the completion of a Periodic inspection and testing of an existing installtion A EICR shall be provided
631.3
where minor electrical installation work does not include the provision of a new circuit A MEIWC based on the model blah blah
may be provided for each circuit altered or extended as an ALTERNATIVE to a EIC

were in all that does it state i cant is what i will be asking him if the assessor asks
as from what i can see it states basically either are acceptable methods and as 1 EIC reduces paperwork and notification costs


the only bit is were malc states in the appendixes namely 6 pg 392
1. the electrical installation certificate is to be used only for the initial certification of a new installation or for an addition or alteration to an existing installation were new circuits have been introduced
It is not for periodic inspections a EICR should be issued
and for additions and alterations which does not extend to the introduction of a new circuit a minor electrical installation works certificate MAY BE USED

doesnt say has to be and doesnt say a EIC cant be used o an existing
at teh bottom under the guidance for recipients states this certificate is intended to be issued only for a new electrical installation or for new work associated with an addition or alteration to an existing installation it should not have been issued for the inspection and testing of an existing electrical installation an |EICR should ahve been issued


and after all this I am beginning to think what the BEEP BEEP is it all about and what the beep have i got involved with
 
I think you'll find that all of feel like that about the whole notification tedium....
Absolutely no point filling in multiple MWC's when you can record everything on the EIC correctly, then notify it all at once.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
yes mate
especially when the job is for my brother and the last one was for me mother in law a complete rewire and alarm system for free
so the job i used for last years and this one which will be this years so 2 jobs i have notified well if i issue a EIC for this it will be 3
My brother is kindly paying this years fees and if I get nowhere this year think it will al have been for nothing
well I will be qualified as i have almost completed my NVQ but think if i dont earn enough from it this year then wahts the point of being registered

plus the EIC is more detailed and full set of test results recorded for each circuit
I cant find anything in regs that says i cant so let them show me otherwise
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
So If assessor says otherwise after making him read it i will make him eat it lol

cheers to all I was going to ring him again in the morning to re question him on it but cant be bothered if i am honest with you
at this rate i may as well give him one of each for good measure lol
 

ipf

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
So If assessor says otherwise after making him read it i will make him eat it lol

cheers to all I was going to ring him again in the morning to re question him on it but cant be bothered if i am honest with you
at this rate i may as well give him one of each for good measure lol
EIC sufficient, just making more complications. Note work done.
Give him some lobby to wash it down. lol.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #34
The EIC should describe the extent of the work covered by the Certificate.
You should only record the results of inspecting and testing the work covered by the EIC.
If you inspect and test any of the existing installation, then you are effectivly conducting a Periodic Inspection, something that the BS7671 prohibits an EIC being used for.
Hi mate
so for the new shed supply and the CCU change am I supposed to carry out a full inspection & test of the installation including existing circuits or just the shed supply and any circuits that are new or added altered that i have carried out work on as surely when you change the overcurrent protective devices by providing a new CCU this would require a full set of tests
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Technically when changing a CU, you are not required to test any existing circuits.
This is because before changing the CU, you will already have checked the installation to ascertain that it is suitable to make the alteration.
When checking the installation, you are not required to record any measurements, but many like to conduct an EICR.
It's up to you whether you then after changing the CU, re-test all the circuits and record the results on the EIC.
Some won't bother, some will just transfer the results from tests conducted before the change, some will re-test and others will not have tested before the change, so feel they have to after.
 
Hi mate
so for the new shed supply and the CCU change am I supposed to carry out a full inspection & test of the installation including existing circuits or just the shed supply and any circuits that are new or added altered that i have carried out work on as surely when you change the overcurrent protective devices by providing a new CCU this would require a full set of tests
Personally, I always do a full spread of tests after a CU change (as I often find issues which are not picked up with basic tests prior to the change), but as spin says, that's up to you.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
I did a A PIR at end of last year and this turned up mutiple issues with the existing CCUs and circuits loads of loose connections
CPC end to end High
step 2 and 3 all sockets gave different readings
It was originally stranded imperials probably al readils and someone has made a ring with multiple sockets spurred of other sockets and possible hidden joints under the floor
but on the lighting I only carried out a IR test with L-N Joined to earth
there were mutiple circuits still connnected going nowhere LOW IR etc etc loads of observations and recommendations

Then I have run a NEW sHed supply in SWA buried in ducting and final circuits for sockets in the shed and lights as well as a further SWA in ducting to a dcecking area to a double socket which supplies 2x sets of 10 LED decking lights
In the house i changed the wylex fuseboard and a existing volex single RCD split load for
a 13 way BG split high integrity
I have also carried out full set of tests and inspected as much of the instalation as i could to rectify as many issues as i could
I had to alter position of water bond as it was after branchwork (pvc fittings and water filter)
A NEW lighting circuit for light under stairs in meter cupboard
removed loads of obsolete circuits whic i had disconnected at time of PIR
Shower was feeding a 230v wall fan in zone 1 direct from the 30A DP pull switch supply side
connector blocks hidden in loft under a ton of insulation no tape loose connections
rodent damage to strappers in loft
the list is endless it would have been a whole lot easier to rewire
If only he hadnt had so much work done which would be affected by a rewire
there were lights in old half of kitchen fed from house lighting and seperate circuit for 4 downlights and flourescent in utility, 3 downlights in soffit

The house lighting highest continuity reading i have had was almost 6 ohms gradually with all loose connections and hidden connectors got it down to 1.71 which is at landing light due to the resistance of the strappers so this is R1 +R2
there is a lighting circuit that did a the house including 5 GU10s in old part of kitchen and attic fluorescent
When carrying out the full set of tests as i was connecting the existing circuits found a LOW IR of 0.14Meg on house lights between L-N
traced to above old part of kitchen
couldnt remove flooorboards due to wooden flooring in all rooms above and newly fitted carpet on landing until speaking to customer
so I Isolated and locked off and informed the customer

I Issued a EIC
for CU change and sub main to shed with final circuits and also the new lighting circuit and I&T of existing circuits some of these i have altered also and ticked the boxes marked additions and alterations for it all
and recorded the details of the fault on lighting that needed urgent remedial action
recorded a full EIC with schedule of inspections and a schedule of test results for all circuits inc continuation sheet for the shed and final circuits

I spoke to customer and arranged to go back but would need to remove bathroom wooden flooring and carpet on landing to find the suspected faulty connection

I found a base of a 3 plate rose no lid nothing jsut a 1.5mm flex connected no earths connected the neutral flex was hanging on By 3 strands and visibly heat damged and so was terminal also the lop terminals had neary burned through to the neutral the flex then went to a connector block and 2.5mm was looped in and out to the 5 gu10s and further connector blocks with 1mm out to individual fittings termianted incorrectly

They had also asked me to sort out the faulty fan i had disconnected in bathroom and the outside lights
I provided a new supply for outside lights and 2 x fcus one to feed a timer for soffit lights and 1 to feed outside switch for PIR flood

I removed al the dodgy wiring for the 5 x GU10s rewired and then added to the newer part of kitchen lights
to create one circuit for kitchen and utility and remove some of the load of the house lighting
so was going to issue a EIC for the 3 circuits affected by my works until elecsa guy reckoned i shoud issue a EIC for new supply and MEIWCs for the additions and alterations
Talk about confusion

anyway cheers guys for all our help and advice
 
Sounds like you did a thorough and professional job mate. As already said, as long as all test results are good, and you've listed what you did, then everyone should be happy :)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #39
yeah mate
tried me best still would like to do more but cant for the damge it would cause to all his decoration and fixtures
It would have cost him a fortune for this work done of someone else would have taken it on but think they would have jsut recommended a rewire as it would have been a whole lot easier and quicker

Will be rewiring house lights and sockets in future when he is willing to have the work done
as the house lighting IR is now over 100M its adequate for now and reduced the continuity from almost 6ohms to 1.71ohms
the sockets arent wired conventionally but for now at least they are RCD protected and found mutiple lose connections twisted Ns not in terminal twisted CPCs not in terminal high resistance
the old wylex had about 4 circuits in each of the 4 ways and some of these circuits such as shower was feeding shower , wall fan in zone 1 and old FCU which used to supply his central heating all removed as he has new combi in utility and
cables were coming at the board from all over the shop some damaged some with low Ir
heat damged 6mm earthing and bonding to wylex
mate the list was very long
It was good to do
but i wouldnt like to get to many like that lol

I have also rang elecsa again and as i originaqlly thought and others have stated a EIC is acceptable for the new supply and the additions and alterations so happy days can notify this finally lol

cheers to all for taking the time to reply
 
Sometimes it is hard to explain fully over the phone, and the tech guys obviously have to interpret what you are telling them. Always worth another phone call if something isn't clear the first time.
 

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