Discuss certification in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

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brucelee

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Hi All

I have a question regarding correct certification
I carried out some work which included a CCU change , New shed supply and final circuits , another new circuit and some replacement acessories so issued a EIC for additions and alterations to an existing

I have then had to go back and carry out urgent remedial work as there was L-N IR fault on the house lighting
couldnt rectify fault at time of above has had to seek permission from customer regarding removal of wood flooring and carpets so I isolated the circuit and locked off as well as informing the customer I had already rectified mutlipe loose connections and hidden connector blocks in loft under a ton of insualtion Not taped nothing the Resistance was apporaching 6 ohms

I then got permission to carry out the work as well as some additional work
So I traced the fault it was a Pendent base shoved under flooring above original half of kitchen the Neutral flex was jsut hanging by about 3 stranded Visible heat damage to it and the neutral terminal and the loops had nearly burned through to the neutrals on the 3 plate pendent base No lid even then connector blocks 2.5mm T/E looped in and out and more connector blocks with 1.0mm T/E to Gu10s installed at side of beams etc
It was done when He had his kitchen extended and a new fitted kitchen this is only one of many issues and faults I have found

So rewired, repositioned, removed from house lighting and added to existing kitchen circuit which is a kitchen extension
so as to create 1 circuit for all the kitchen and utility and remove some of the load from existing hosue lights
I also installed a new supply for existing outside lighting from a RCBO and installed 2 new FCUs 1 for existing soffit lights and 1 for existing security light

I have then replaced a wall fan like for like in bathroom but altered the wiring as it was previously fed from a shower circuit at the 30dp pull switch which has now been removed

so I have teken new feed from existing house lighting and installed a 3A FCU and then a 3 pole Isolator pull switch the load leg is the existing as couldnt change due to damge to decoration Ie tiles


Would you issue a EIC for the LOT
OR
Would you issue a EIC for the NEW supply to the existing outside lights
and 2 MEIWCs for the additions and alterations to the other circuits

I would Like your opinions on the certification you would issue as ELECSA and MY relevent books differ in whats certification is required
I thought EIC and so does some of my books but elecsa think otherwise
Thanks
 

telectrix

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the confusion here is that if the altered circuits are included on the SOTR on the EIC for the CU and new circuits, why issue separate MEWICs for them?
 
D

DurhamSparky

If all work was done around same time then just use Eic.....

Im on our lasses iPad in car so just skimming through posts!!
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Hi Mate
Thats what ELECSA reckon

I issued a EIC for the SHED and CCU change
and then was going to issue a EIC for
the new supply to existing outsode lights and the alterations and additions

They reckon a EIC for the new supply
and MEIWCs for the additions alterations to existing

which would mean 3 seperate notifications jsut to work on 3 circuits as 1 is new suply and others are alterations in special locations or installations
Thought they were trying to reduce cost and burden of notification under part P

Christopher Kitchers Guide to I&T says a EIC for new circuit and were addditions and alterations to an existing or seperate MEIWCs for the additions and alterations
NIC inspection , testing and certification say a EIC

SO is A EIC solely FOR new installs , Rewires, CCU changes and NEW circuits or changing overcurrent charicteristics etc and not for any alterations or additions to existing circuits
 

malcolmsanford

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Kent working back out there yet again
If you have a look at the notes in appendix 6 of the BGB about an EIC you will see

"The Electrical Installation Certificate is to be used only for the initial certification of a new installation or for an addition or alteration to an existing installation where new circuits have been introduced"

For me it should have been EIC for thenew circuits and a MEIWC for the other.

IMO I would have thought that an EIC could have covered it all, and think that ELECSA are being a bit "Geeky" over this, but I suppose to the letter of the regulations they are right.

But then we do have the argument that appendixes apart from the first are informative rather than normative .................but that is another thread
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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I was under impression if doing a EIC for the supply to new circuit and carrying out other work then jsut issue for the lot

the SHED and CCU change I issed a EIC for but as there was a fault on lighting I had to then go back and carying out rectification as well as further work
 

telectrix

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if elecsa want it, then just cut another tree down. anything left over, use for fuel on the fire. :smoking:
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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think they are jsut trying to generate more cash not to mention the trees that will be wasted lol
I suppose I will jsut have to do as ELECSA WANT as this will be this years job for assessment

I have already issued and notified the CCU change and shed supply

I was jsut going to notify again last week for this work but decided to ring them over this and a few other things lol and then after I explaned what i had done and was doing he said EIC for the new and MEIWCs for the additions and alterations

Can I use ELECSAs sample 3 circuit MEIWCs for the additions and alterations to save doing 3 certs and 3 notifications
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Last question on certs lol

when I am filling in the schedule of inspections If only carrying out work on 1 circuit is the items inspected Only for the circuit thats new or has had work carried out, Earthing , Bonding etc and not the whole installation Ie the other circuits
Ie No selv on this circuit so N/A
 
D

Deleted member 26818

There is no requirement in BS7671 to use a MEIWC.
You may use an MEIWC as an alternative to an EIC in instances where an addition or alteration affects only a single 'existing' circuit.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Hi spin Thats what I thought If i was jsut doing a addition or alteration that didnt include a new circuit then would issue MEIWCs
But as I am doing a EIC for the NEW supply thought It was ok to just have it all on one EIC
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Hi spin Thats what I thought If i was jsut doing a addition or alteration that didnt include a new circuit then would issue MEIWCs
But as I am doing a EIC for the NEW supply thought It was ok to just have it all on one EIC
Yes, it sounds as if ELECSA just want to beef up their income.
Do they do a scheme where a reduced fee is paid for a limited number of notifications?
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Hi spin wish they did as
since joining last year i have done less than 5 notifications and they haev sent me a letter stating this years fees will be taken on 10th sept my assessment is due end october
I received a email survey regarding there performance and comments on what i thought could be changed
I stated that they should also do a scheme for less than say 5 notifications then half the fees and if you need to notify ore in a single year then you pay the remaining difference

But i dont think they will

so when doing a job on one circuit when filling in the schedule of inspection on a EIC for new circuit do I jsut inspect that circuit and CCU earthing and bonding etc and tick the appropriate boxes
such as if selv is not present on the circuit N/A
or should i be inspecting the whole installation abd because selv is present on another circuit record a tick
 

Richard Burns

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You only complete the form for the work you are doing so do not include other circuits in the inspection, you can list the circuits on the SoTR for clarity but no test results.
SELV is unlikely to be ticked in any case as it will not be the sole protective measure as ADS will be still in operation even for ELV downlights.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

The EIC should describe the extent of the work covered by the Certificate.
You should only record the results of inspecting and testing the work covered by the EIC.
If you inspect and test any of the existing installation, then you are effectivly conducting a Periodic Inspection, something that the BS7671 prohibits an EIC being used for.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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HI mate
so if there is selv but as its also protected BY ADS then I dont need to tick the box for selv
or for example you have double insulated fan and LV downlights that are double insulated I wouldnt have to tick the box marked double insulation becuase of the ADS
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Spin so I just fill in the details applicable to the work i am carrying out and the circuit details and test results of the circuits i am working on
 
D

Deleted member 26818

You tick whatever boxes apply.
If you install an item of equipment that uses SELV, then you tick it.
With down lights, the cable feeding the transformer uses ADS, from the transformer to the downlight, SELV is used.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Thanks spin

I have installed a 230v ipx5 fan in zone 1 to replace the existing and its double insulated also

and as i have rewired and relocated the downlights in kitchen 230v GU!0s these are also double insulated so will tick the relevent box for double insualtion
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Thanks to all who have replied appreciate you taking the time to clear up my confusion

I will mither the elecsa guy to death when he comes lol and drop hints about reducing fees for minimal notifications as it costs me more to be registered and notify than it would to go through LABC lol
 

Guitarist

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Let's not forget what the certs are there for... to record test results.
Common sense dictates that if you are carrying out a CU change, altering/adding circuits, then testing the whole lot to ensure it is safe and compliant, as long as what you have done is recorded on the EIC then I can't see the need for additional paperwork. It will all be recorded accurately and stated on the EIC.

All that said, if you do some work and notify it, then go back and do additional work, of course you will need to generate additional paperwork.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Hi guitarist yes

I did a PIR last year but with lim on IR
then I have retested all circuits when doing the EIC for the NEW shed supply and CCU change a new circuit and some accesories replaced
then as there was a fault on lighting which i couldnt rectify immediatly i had to go back to sort that and at same time was asked to do some additioanl work

Wish they had jsut let me remove the floorring if needed in first place then i could have jsut issued a EICfor the Lot save laods of certs and notifications

cheers
 
1

1shortcircuit

Hi Bruce, I have only skimmed this thread but I would issue an EIC covering the lot if all of the work is notifiable. Reason being if you do an EIC and it's notifiable and a Minor Works that is also notifiable then that's two lots of notification.

If it's not notifiable then use a separate Minor Works certificate ;) :thumbsup
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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Hi mate yes would be better but the elecsa tech guy seems to think otherwise
which will mean 3 certs and 3 notifications as its a new circuit and addition and alterations to 2 existing lighting circuits in special locations or installations eg Kitchen and bathroom
and the formfill software i have only issues a MEIWC for one circuit so i will require
1 EIC and MEIWCs
 
G

Guest55

Hi mate yes would be better but the elecsa tech guy seems to think otherwise
which will mean 3 certs and 3 notifications as its a new circuit and addition and alterations to 2 existing lighting circuits in special locations or installations eg Kitchen and bathroom
and the formfill software i have only issues a MEIWC for one circuit so i will require
1 EIC and MEIWCs
F**k what the elecsa guy thinks , the certs are for the benefit of the customer so he has a record of work done , not for the schemes to use as an excuse to make extra cash.
If all the work can be squeezed on 1 EIC then its less paperwork for you ;-)
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Another thing to consider, is how many notifications would be made if you were not part of a scheme.
Would you make multiple notifications for what is essentially one lot of work?
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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reg 633.1 states that
the requirments of 631 and 632 for the ssue of an EIC OR a MEIWC shall apply to all the work of the additons and alterations
631.1upon completion of the verification of a new installation or changes to an existing installation,
An EIC based on blah blah
631.2 upon the completion of a Periodic inspection and testing of an existing installtion A EICR shall be provided
631.3
where minor electrical installation work does not include the provision of a new circuit A MEIWC based on the model blah blah
may be provided for each circuit altered or extended as an ALTERNATIVE to a EIC

were in all that does it state i cant is what i will be asking him if the assessor asks
as from what i can see it states basically either are acceptable methods and as 1 EIC reduces paperwork and notification costs


the only bit is were malc states in the appendixes namely 6 pg 392
1. the electrical installation certificate is to be used only for the initial certification of a new installation or for an addition or alteration to an existing installation were new circuits have been introduced
It is not for periodic inspections a EICR should be issued
and for additions and alterations which does not extend to the introduction of a new circuit a minor electrical installation works certificate MAY BE USED

doesnt say has to be and doesnt say a EIC cant be used o an existing
at teh bottom under the guidance for recipients states this certificate is intended to be issued only for a new electrical installation or for new work associated with an addition or alteration to an existing installation it should not have been issued for the inspection and testing of an existing electrical installation an |EICR should ahve been issued


and after all this I am beginning to think what the BEEP BEEP is it all about and what the beep have i got involved with
 

Guitarist

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I think you'll find that all of feel like that about the whole notification tedium....
Absolutely no point filling in multiple MWC's when you can record everything on the EIC correctly, then notify it all at once.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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yes mate
especially when the job is for my brother and the last one was for me mother in law a complete rewire and alarm system for free
so the job i used for last years and this one which will be this years so 2 jobs i have notified well if i issue a EIC for this it will be 3
My brother is kindly paying this years fees and if I get nowhere this year think it will al have been for nothing
well I will be qualified as i have almost completed my NVQ but think if i dont earn enough from it this year then wahts the point of being registered

plus the EIC is more detailed and full set of test results recorded for each circuit
I cant find anything in regs that says i cant so let them show me otherwise
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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So If assessor says otherwise after making him read it i will make him eat it lol

cheers to all I was going to ring him again in the morning to re question him on it but cant be bothered if i am honest with you
at this rate i may as well give him one of each for good measure lol
 

ipf

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So If assessor says otherwise after making him read it i will make him eat it lol

cheers to all I was going to ring him again in the morning to re question him on it but cant be bothered if i am honest with you
at this rate i may as well give him one of each for good measure lol
EIC sufficient, just making more complications. Note work done.
Give him some lobby to wash it down. lol.
 
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brucelee

brucelee

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The EIC should describe the extent of the work covered by the Certificate.
You should only record the results of inspecting and testing the work covered by the EIC.
If you inspect and test any of the existing installation, then you are effectivly conducting a Periodic Inspection, something that the BS7671 prohibits an EIC being used for.
Hi mate
so for the new shed supply and the CCU change am I supposed to carry out a full inspection & test of the installation including existing circuits or just the shed supply and any circuits that are new or added altered that i have carried out work on as surely when you change the overcurrent protective devices by providing a new CCU this would require a full set of tests
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Technically when changing a CU, you are not required to test any existing circuits.
This is because before changing the CU, you will already have checked the installation to ascertain that it is suitable to make the alteration.
When checking the installation, you are not required to record any measurements, but many like to conduct an EICR.
It's up to you whether you then after changing the CU, re-test all the circuits and record the results on the EIC.
Some won't bother, some will just transfer the results from tests conducted before the change, some will re-test and others will not have tested before the change, so feel they have to after.
 
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