Client refusing spd

[catdog1121]

£70 may be nothing to you, but to many it is a significant amount of money, often more than a day's wages. In the vast majority of cases, an SPD is insurance against something that is highly unlikely to happen.

Tradespersons who force their clients to buy unnecessary components because they don't know the regulations could themselves be perceived as cowboys.

Here is what the regs say:

Protection against transient overvoltages shall be provided where the consequence caused by overvoltage could:

• Result in serious injury to, or loss of, human life, or
• Result in interruption of public services and/or damage to cultural heritage or
• Result in interruption of commercial or industrial activity, or
• Affect a large number of co-located individuals

For all other cases, a risk assessment according to Regulation 443.5 shall be performed in order to determine if protection against transient overvoltages is required.

This is is quite clear that where no protection via an SPD risk assessment must be performed...

My point is to carry out that risk assessment costs time which is money. The only exception being if for a single dwelling where the total value of the installation and equipment does not justify protection. So lets consider what a lightning strike can damage in a best case scenario of a little old ladies house.. The consumer unit, all wiring, all accessories, TV, Microwave, fridge/freezer. So thats a complete rewire, including redecoration, new TV, microwave and fridge/freezer, lets say thats £5000 as a cheap estimate..

You are trying to say that a £70 SPD is not justified to save £5k? The reason that is there is if say you have the incomer in the garage and tails is split into two boards, one for the house one for the garage. The garage has a couple of sockets with nothing plugged in and a light... In that instance then yes you can say the cost of fitting an SPD to the garage is not necessarily justified.

There has been youtube videos where a lady from the IET (cant remember her name but an expert on transient voltages) said for all residential properties the interpretation is that they all need SPD's.

If you are really concerned about cost go fit a BG board with SPD which is currently £20 at screwfix, or a fusebox SPD kit which is £27. I can understand why we were having this conversation when SPD's were over £100 but some are now £20... An SPD is generally as necessary as an RCD, if a customer said I dont want to pay for an RCD board would you fit a board with no RCD's?

 

[catdog1121]

Yeah the difference between a non spd board and an spd board, is literally £70-£100 difference.
Due to the variables already in the area, i wasn't sure whether its mandatory. I don't want a call saying "i should have fitted an spd" due to xyz, if i customer refuses it, im gonna make sure its a departure and refusal.
Anything that could come back at us, even the tiny possibility, keep our asses covered.

Yep, also tell customers that this may potentially invalidate their insurance in the event of a transient voltage such as a lightning strike causing damage... Usually focuses the mind. If they are concerned about the money that much fit a fusebox board where the SPD is less than £30...

 

[timhoward]

For all other cases, a risk assessment according to Regulation 443.5 shall be performed in order to determine if protection against transient overvoltages is required.

This is is quite clear that where no protection via an SPD risk assessment must be performed...

If we finish that sentence....
"For all other cases a risk assessment shall be performed etc. If the risk assessment is not performed [you need to install one] except for single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection"
The gives the context for the comments earlier in this thread.

However I do agree with you that I can't think of many houses where spending £30 to protect equipment worth thousands isn't justified. My scheme assessor said he wanted either an RA or an SPD, and so they just get fitted as standard now - life's too short!
Much as I don't ask customers what rating RCBO's to fit, I don't ask them if they want an SPD either. They just get one!

 

[Julie.]

Here is what the regs say:

Protection against transient overvoltages shall be provided where the consequence caused by overvoltage could:

• Result in serious injury to, or loss of, human life, or
• Result in interruption of public services and/or damage to cultural heritage or
• Result in interruption of commercial or industrial activity, or
• Affect a large number of co-located individuals

For all other cases, a risk assessment according to Regulation 443.5 shall be performed in order to determine if protection against transient overvoltages is required.

This is is quite clear that where no protection via an SPD risk assessment must be performed...

NO it doesn't!

You stopped reading/copying prior the the part about residential!

Which is different to others, it is very clear the above applies to everything OTHER THAN:

...single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection.

If an end user (residential) says that he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection (not that it's less than the cost, just that it doesn't warrant it) then it need not be fitted - this would be completely compliant with the regulations.

It's not a departure!
How would this invalidate insurance? (It is 100% compliant!)

It may be a poor decision, in my/your/our opinion it would be worth fitting but the installation would be correct to the regs.

 

[Lister1987]

Not this again. Thr calculation is simple.

CRL =fenv/(Lp×Ng)
where:

fenv is an environmental factor selected according to Table 443.1
Lp is the risk assessment l
ength in km (see below)

Ng is the lightning ground flash density (flashes per km2
per year) relevant to the location of the power
line and connected structure (see Figure 44.2).

The calculation for Lp is;

LP = 2 Lpal + Lpcl + 0.4 Lpah + 0.2 Lpch

Lpal - Length of LV overhead line in km
Lpcl - Length of LV underground line in km
Lpah - Length of HV overhead line in km
Lpch - Length of HV underground line in km

Thr collective length (Lpal + Lpcl + Lpah + Lpch) is limited to 1km so if you can't calculate then use 1.

So we now have CRL =fenv/(1×Ng)

fenv is an environmental factor selected according to Table 443.1 (85 for countryside, 850 for urban)

CRL =85/(1×Ng)

CRL = 850/(1*Ng)

Ng is the lightning ground flash density (flashes per km2 per year) relevant to the location of the power line and connected structure (see Figure 44.2).

you don't define what you mean by "lightening zone". So we'll use 0.5 and 0.8 respectively.

CRL =85/(1×0.5) = 170
CRL =85/(1×0.8) = 106.25

CRL = 850/(1*0.5) = 1700
CRL = 850/(1*0.8) = 1062.5

Urban environment will almost always need one by calculation.

Another way to do it is ask that customer how much tech thru own; iPads, TVs, computers, consoles etc (chances are you'll easily hit low to mid 1000s), ask if they have insurance and the excess they would have to pay on a claim AND how much that will increase for them next year.

In most cases your SPD will cost less than any excess and so be a no brainer.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

So lets consider what a lightning strike can damage in a best case scenario of a little old ladies house.. The consumer unit, all wiring, all accessories, TV, Microwave, fridge/freezer. So thats a complete rewire, including redecoration, new TV, microwave and fridge/freezer, lets say thats £5000 as a cheap estimate..

Little old lady has lived for 80 years and has never once had the above problem, nor does she know anyone who has. And neither do I. Why? Cos it happens so incredibly rarely that the risk is negligible. Also, little old lady is on state pension, so has very limited funds and does not want to spend unnecessarily, £70 is a lot of money to her. She wouldn't like to learn that her electrician was mis-selling her unnecessary items.

SPDs are there to help protect sensitive electronic equipment, I have not heard of them being touted as protection against direct lightning strikes of the magnitude that would destroy fixed wiring. Where are you getting this information from?

You are trying to say that a £70 SPD is not justified to save £5k?

You're misrepresenting my argument. IF a surge event happens, and the SPD protects £5k worth of equipment (which it isn't guaranteed to do BTW), then it was money well spent. However, the odds of it happening are so incredibly slim as to be negligible. And even if they weren't, who am I to make that decision? It's up to my clients.

There has been youtube videos where a lady from the IET (cant remember her name but an expert on transient voltages) said for all residential properties the interpretation is that they all need SPD's.

Without a link to back this comment up, this smells of fertiliser.

If you are really concerned about cost go fit a BG board with SPD which is currently £20 at screwfix, or a fusebox SPD kit which is £27. I can understand why we were having this conversation when SPD's were over £100 but some are now £20...

Why? Why should I make my clients spend £20 more than they have to, if they don't want to? If £20 is nothing to you, then send me £20 now.

An SPD is generally as necessary as an RCD, if a customer said I dont want to pay for an RCD board would you fit a board with no RCD's?

This is a truly absurd comment.

Out of interest, before the 18th edition, were you forcing these oh-so incredibly important SPDs on your clients?

 

[loz2754]

Little old lady has lived for 80 years and has never once had the above problem, nor does she know anyone who has. And neither do I. Why? Cos it happens so incredibly rarely that the risk is negligible. Also, little old lady is on state pension, so has very limited funds and does not want to spend unnecessarily, £70 is a lot of money to her. She wouldn't like to learn that her electrician was mis-selling her unnecessary items.

SPDs are there to help protect sensitive electronic equipment, I have not heard of them being touted as protection against direct lightning strikes of the magnitude that would destroy fixed wiring. Where are you getting this information from?



You're misrepresenting my argument. IF a surge event happens, and the SPD protects £5k worth of equipment (which it isn't guaranteed to do BTW), then it was money well spent. However, the odds of it happening are so incredibly slim as to be negligible. And even if they weren't, who am I to make that decision? It's up to my clients.


Without a link to back this comment up, this smells of fertiliser.


Why? Why should I make my clients spend £20 more than they have to, if they don't want to? If £20 is nothing to you, then send me £20 now.


This is a truly absurd comment.

Out of interest, before the 18th edition, were you forcing these oh-so incredibly important SPDs on your clients?

I totally agree with all these arguments made by @Pretty Mouth

There was an article in Connections Magazine a while back, which basically said the decision on whether to install an SPD in a domestic setting, shouldn't be made solely on value of the connected equipment, but also on the likelihood of a surge event happening.

Having said that, as SPDs have come down in price quite a lot, I have taken the decision to fit them as standard in most properties when I change a consumer unit. But I will always try to give the best value for money, especially when the client is not well off financially. Which means that sometimes the SPD gets left out.

 

[Avo Mk8]

CRL = 850/(1*0.5) = 1700
CRL = 850/(1*0.8) = 1062.5

Urban environment will almost always need one by calculation.

Sorry, didn't follow. Your examples for Urban work out above 1000, so don't require SPD.
I thought it was Countryside that was more likely to require SPD's? (says me living in the countryside ?)

 

[DPG]

Anyone saying they have never heard of any equipment being damaged by surges - you probably wouldn't even realise. Any faulty device could have been affected by a surge.

Also, sometimes people seem fixated on direct lightning strikes. Of course an SPD won't protect against this, but it may well protect against the induced peaks on the mains caused by such a strike.

A company once tried to cost-down their product by removing some of the lightning/surge protection components. What happened? Well, they started getting more products returned as faulty. Faults caused by surges.

 

[suffolkspark]

Had a powercut at home a few months ago, when the power came back on I had a dead cctv monitor and surround sound system. I can only assume there was a surge of some description at that point. Because they worked before it. Replacing those 2 items cost me £600. Power cuts are common out in rural suffolk where I live, who knows if an spd would have saved them, but they literally do now get built into the price of everyjob board replacement i do due to this personal experience.

 

[ipf]

An SPD is generally as necessary as an RCD, if a customer said I dont want to pay for an RCD board would you fit a board with no RCD's?

What an absolute load of rubbish.

So the chance of losing 5k worth of gear is just as important as risking direct contact in a garden or bathroom with, say, bs3036 or 60898 protection?

I think priorities need sorting, here.

 

[ipf]

Anyone saying they have never heard of any equipment being damaged by surges - you probably wouldn't even realise. Any faulty device could have been affected by a surge.

Also, sometimes people seem fixated on direct lightning strikes. Of course an SPD won't protect against this, but it may well protect against the induced peaks on the mains caused by such a strike.

A company once tried to cost-down their product by removing some of the lightning/surge protection components. What happened? Well, they started getting more products returned as faulty. Faults caused by surges.

Aye, seen loads in industry. Plenty of machines in printing, for example, come with special supply units, or call for external spd protection.

 

[nicebutdim]

I like this type of debate/argument as it tends to flush out the sort of detail that is often overlooked.

My very limited experience of this subject was based on a rural, overhead TT supply, where a combined Type I/II device would have been required to provide appropriate protection and unfortunately cost was such that no reasonable argument could have been made in its favour.

Having watched SPD prices reduce since that time, it appears that significant reductions have mainly been seen on Type II devices which, while adequate for most domestic installations, might be considered inadequate in some cases and therefore an unnecessary expense.

Am I right? If not, feel free to clarify this (or demolish my feeble thinking ?).

 

[pc1966]

Having watched SPD prices reduce since that time, it appears that significant reductions have mainly been seen on Type II devices which, while adequate for most domestic installations, might be considered inadequate in some cases and therefore an unnecessary expense.

For an overhead line supply I too would be tempted to fit a Type 1+2 due to the potential for a very large surge, but realistically even a normal Type 2 is going to help with the protection. It might just not last very long and as we all know no one every checks them, or tests their RCDs, except at EICR times...

I think @Mike Johnson reported this in his French property, it typically burns out a Type 2 SPD each year.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Tend to agree with above. Been fitting surge protection in commercial for a few years now and the proper ones cost around £1000 to fit, but at least you can attach an alarm circuit to warn when it has sacrificed itself. The ones i have seen installed either as antisurge extension leads or the small CU installed ones have generally been shot for how long, anybodies guess. For these antisurge products to be of any real use, they need checking after every power cut and weekly in my view, otherwise its a false assumption you are protected.
The cost of them is tiny but rather than get into whether its regs or not, what is more important is that they are monitored, otherwise whats the point.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think @Mike Johnson reported this in his French property, it typically burns out a Type 2 SPD each year.

Not cheap on a three phase supply, three moderate strikes and the SPD is fried or can be just one big strike, seems all three phase's get hit at the same time, I now don't bother, just turn everything off during our main surge problem of thunderstorm or when we leave the property for an extended time.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Yep, also tell customers that this may potentially invalidate their insurance in the event of a transient voltage such as a lightning strike causing damage... Usually focuses the mind. If they are concerned about the money that much fit a fusebox board where the SPD is less than £30...

"Usually focuses the mind" but it's a lie, I have written this often, you can not invalidate your insurance no matter what you do, the insurance company in the case of a claim may reduce any payout due to contribute negligence, but can not invalidate your insurance, it is a contract that can not be revoked unless the terms and conditions of the application where not met.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Europa Components 'Simple guide to Installing Surge Protection Devices (DEHN Flyer!)'
? says:
'If you have a surge and have damage then the insurance company will pay out once and then ask you to fit SPDs."

 

[Mike Johnson]

That should say: 'If you have a surge and have damage the insurance company will pay out they may then ask you to fit SPDs."

 

[catdog1121]

NO it doesn't!

You stopped reading/copying prior the the part about residential!

Which is different to others, it is very clear the above applies to everything OTHER THAN:

...single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection.

If an end user (residential) says that he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection (not that it's less than the cost, just that it doesn't warrant it) then it need not be fitted - this would be completely compliant with the regulations.

It's not a departure!
How would this invalidate insurance? (It is 100% compliant!)

It may be a poor decision, in my/your/our opinion it would be worth fitting but the installation would be correct to the regs.

I am sorry could you point where in the regulations does it state "If the end user says he does not believe the potential for damage warrants the cost of protection then it is not required"? No its a statement of fact, my point is in even the smallest house the less than £30 protection will be protecting at least £5k of potential damage. Thus the cost of protection being under £30 will generally always warrant its requirement.

I can think of situations where say room for a consumer unit is limited so fitting one would mean relocating a consumer unit or having to make big changes, so would massively increase the cost of having to fit an SPD then there is an argument.

If a customer says they dont want the cost of RCD's is that also ok also?