Discuss Commercial kitchen tables in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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andyhalf

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we have a site where in a school kitchen there is a stainless table with just a sandwich maker on it, we are being told enviro health officer said it wants bonding is this correct? the socket is rcd protected.
 
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Spudnik

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  • #2
He is 100% correct im afraid.

And to any other metal tables that are in there.
 
A

andyhalf

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  • #3
why? and bonding to what? please
 
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Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
If there are appliances located or used on these takes then there is a shock risk, through damaged appliance cables etc. Therefore could be bonded either to the db if its close enough or a nearby socket.

Sockets should also be 30ma rcd protected.
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Hey all.

There is no specific regulation in ol' red that says metallic furniture in commercial or domestic kitchens needs to be bonded.

Thats not to say you shouldn't do it though, problem is where do you stop? if you bond one, then all within touching distance should be bonded otherwise you may inadvertantly create an area of high shock risk.

As J said though all socket outlets should be 30mA protected, the reg says something like, incase of damage to flexible cords.

Cheers.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Hey all.

There is no specific regulation in ol' red that says metallic furniture in commercial or domestic kitchens needs to be bonded.

Cheers.
No there isnt, but it is extraneuos so should be surely?
 
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Guest123

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  • #7
Only the table it's sitting on, so yes bond this but then you would need also to bond any other tables within reach to continue the equipotential zone.
Nearly all local authorities ask for this to be done including mine.

A problem we've got at the moment in a new school we're doing is that all the windows in the kitchen are aluminium and B.C want these bonded too, I can see his point as you need to reach over the metal tables to open them but I think it's getting out of hand. We'll be earthig the cutlery next!!!!
 
W

wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
If the kitchen appliences are rcd protected sue him for wrongful info. If the inspector works for your local council, also beat the **** out of him, a left in the ****** followed by a right in the nose.
Tell him (while he is bleeding on the floor) you cost me me money pal.

I don't luv you anymore -;)
 
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Strickers

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Arms
Just done large school kitchen myself and the place was covering in bonding, we just used 4mm pigtailed between the table's and bonded using bonding clamps them back to consumer unit. Waste of time probably because everything in the kitchen was protected by 30ma rcbo's.It was in the coucils spec so what can you do??
 
B

Bernieg

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  • #12
Can I bring the 'Electricity at Work Regulations 1989' to your attention. As you are aware these regulations are statutory and it is a criminal offence if you have not taken reasonalbe steps to comply.

Regulation 8 states as follows; "Precautions shall be taken, either by earthing or by other suitable means, to prevent danger arising when any conductor (other than a circuit conductor) which may reasonably foreseeably become charged as a result of either the use of a system, or a fault in a system, becomes so charged; and, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this regulation, a conductor shall be regarded as earthed when it is connected to the general mass of earth by conductors of sufficient strength and current-carrying capability to discharge electrical energy to earth."

So the metal table which is a conductor must be earthed if a piece of electrical equipment is intended to 'sit' on the table.

Sorry this reply is drawn out but it is important that these regulations are followed in addition to the IEE Regs.
 

old dog

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Arms
take alook at 415.2 also definitions
extraneous-conductive-part
a conductive part liable to introduce a potential ,generally earth potential and not forming part of an electrical installation
 
G

Guest123

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Hey.

I think we all agree thay if a metal table had electrical equipment sitting on it then it could be classed as an extraneous conductive part, so this would need bonding.

Then the situation arises of all the metal tables in the vacinity i.e touching distance, these then would also need bonding as failiure to do so may increase the shock risk as opposed to decreasing by not continuing the equipotential zone.

My question is where do you stop?? My opinion is that if you bond 1 table then you need to bond all of them.

Cheers.
 
the answers in the on site guide page 31 4.6 , according to this theres no need to bond, but often the clerk or council will make it their own specification.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
As mentioned before, there is no requirement to bond providing 30 mA RCD protection is used on the socket outlets.

But if they say do it, then who are we to argue?
 

old dog

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Arms
the table does not form part of the structor of the building it is not fixed to the structor
it has no earth potential the applliances to be used on the table are not fixed appliances
it is not an extreneous condutive part
explain this to the person ordering the work explain the danger of introducing
earth potential do this in writing see how fast he changes his mind

also tell him you got this info from a sparks who cant spell STRUCTURE
 
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A

andyhalf

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  • #18
thanks guys as im new to this site ive found it great already
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Can I bring the 'Electricity at Work Regulations 1989' to your attention. As you are aware these regulations are statutory and it is a criminal offence if you have not taken reasonalbe steps to comply.

Regulation 8 states as follows; "Precautions shall be taken, either by earthing or by other suitable means, to prevent danger arising when any conductor (other than a circuit conductor) which may reasonably foreseeably become charged as a result of either the use of a system, or a fault in a system, becomes so charged; and, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this regulation, a conductor shall be regarded as earthed when it is connected to the general mass of earth by conductors of sufficient strength and current-carrying capability to discharge electrical energy to earth."

So the metal table which is a conductor must be earthed if a piece of electrical equipment is intended to 'sit' on the table.

Sorry this reply is drawn out but it is important that these regulations are followed in addition to the IEE Regs.

hi there

i must agree with with the above statement but it is still valid without a catering appliance sitting on top of the table. (ACS GAS catering engineer):eek: Why still o not know why i did it ah money !:rolleyes:

The reason for this is appliances where a trailing lead may snags etc on to the metal table, meat slicing machine mixers all used flex and get nicks and cuts in thus causing a shock risk.

I agree that some appliances are double insulated but many older appliances are not.
Many gas appliances are placed on to a metal table, fixed pipe work ie combi ovens so these have to be bonded out.

so arguing about which reg it is somewhat pointless depend upon the risk and authority inspecting the kitchen

cheers all
 
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