Wetroom Store - Network Wetroom Suppliers
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

Discuss Competent Person Scheme in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

R

randyrat

Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:  American Electrical Advice Forum

Mmmm....
so to be able to work on domestic properties and self-certify, you need to be approved by NIC or another professional body. Otherwise you have to get your work independently verified by another spark following Building Approval notification. (Every time you do a job)
Question is.....how do you provide "something I did earlier" if you arent allowed to do it?
And don't you feel a bit "held to ransom" by these institutions.....if you don't pay their yearly subs you cant work?

Or have I got totally the wrong end of the stick?
Cant you get blanket approval via inspection from your local authority? (Wouldn't that be easier?)

I only ask as I am planning on getting set up self employed in the next year or so, and need to examine all the options/pitfalls before I take the leap......

Randyrat
 
Aico 3000 Range
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Mmmm....
so to be able to work on domestic properties and self-certify, you need to be approved by NIC or another professional body. Otherwise you have to get your work independently verified by another spark following Building Approval notification. (Every time you do a job)
Question is.....how do you provide "something I did earlier" if you arent allowed to do it?
And don't you feel a bit "held to ransom" by these institutions.....if you don't pay their yearly subs you cant work?

Or have I got totally the wrong end of the stick?
Cant you get blanket approval via inspection from your local authority? (Wouldn't that be easier?)

I only ask as I am planning on getting set up self employed in the next year or so, and need to examine all the options/pitfalls before I take the leap......

Randyrat
Erm... basically no

The Approved Document to Part P of the Buiding Regs 2000 gives 3 definitive examples of those carrying out electrical work in a domestic premises

1: Person NOT Qualified to issue BS7671 certifactes and NOT a member of a competent persons scheme

2: Person QUALIFIED to issue BS7671 certificates and NOT a member of a competent persons scheme

3: Member of a competent persons scheme

The scenario you have described above relates to (1)

Assuming you are (2): you prenotify nofiable work to the LABC
You carry out work including inspection and testing
You send the LABC a copy of your completed BS7671 cerificates
Depending on the size of the job and your quals/experience they will decide what further action to take

and remember, not ALL work is notifiable

and also appreciate, armed with this information, YOU will now know about ten times as much as your LABC

So when they say

"you have to have 2391 to issue certificates" or

"you have to be a member of a competent persons and have 2391 to issue certificates" or even

"only members of NICEIC are qualified to issue certifcates" or even

"your name must be Dave, you must be wearing a pink taffeta ballgown and say 'wibble' at all times during the testing process"

tell them to READ THE BL*£$DY BOOK, because believe me, most of them have never SEEN BS7671, let alone read it!!!!!

have fun now.....;)
 
R

randyrat

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Ahhhh.....
Shakey, you are the font of all knowledge.....it's all becoming a bit clearer now......
I shall have a nosey at 7671, and see what the crack is...
Many thanks
randyrat

Right....it's all clear now....
Basically anyone "competent" can install, test and certify their own work, and issue a 7671 cert, after informing LABD via a Building Notice form. LABD will charge a snippet under a hundred quid for this, and will inspect the work at some stage (or stages) before issuing a Completion Cert.
By joining a competent persons scheme you cut out LABD (and their fees) and self certify in accordance with 7671.
So my previous comments about the NIC etc holding you to ransom are a little unfair....their fees are covered by the savings on LABD fees on the first few jobs.......
The only thing still a little unclear is......"competent"......and what the NIC etc expect you to front up with.....17th Edition obviously, Domestic Installer EAL, Insp/Test 2391? There doesn't appear to be a set minimum on quals.....confusing.....
Randyrat
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Ahhhh.....
Shakey, you are the font of all knowledge.....it's all becoming a bit clearer now......
I shall have a nosey at 7671, and see what the crack is...
Many thanks
randyrat

Right....it's all clear now....
Basically anyone "competent" can install, test and certify their own work, and issue a 7671 cert, after informing LABD via a Building Notice form. LABD will charge a snippet under a hundred quid for this, and will inspect the work at some stage (or stages) before issuing a Completion Cert.
By joining a competent persons scheme you cut out LABD (and their fees) and self certify in accordance with 7671.
So my previous comments about the NIC etc holding you to ransom are a little unfair....their fees are covered by the savings on LABD fees on the first few jobs.......
The only thing still a little unclear is......"competent"......and what the NIC etc expect you to front up with.....17th Edition obviously, Domestic Installer EAL, Insp/Test 2391? There doesn't appear to be a set minimum on quals.....confusing.....
Randyrat
It depends who you register with

for the NIC domestic installer, EAL DEI & 17th edition, but without your 2391 they wont let youissue NIC PIR's (although theres nothing to stop you issuing your OWN certificates using model froms with your logo on!)

Some of the others are a bit funny about it, I looked and Elecsa and Napit a while ago, and they will only let people with a Level 3 installation qual (such as 2330) do full installations. So someone with EAL DEI and 17th could ONLY do single circuits or extension to circuits (defined scope). or as they say it 'electrical work as an adjunct to the main work' i.e. a plumber putting in a new socket for a boiler.

I think it sucks, I have been knocking around this game for decades and have many, many quals, but i dont have (and dont want) 2330 or its equivalent so i could not register as a 'proper electrician' other than with NICEIC's domestic installer scheme (and as you may see from my posts, i have a 'bit' of knowledge about installations!):mad:

its worth looking at the detail of each scheme and what they allow you to do!
 
R

randyrat

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Mmmm,
thanks for the reply......it seems to me that all these professional bodies need to get their sh*t in one sock and decide on a set of basic quals. It looks like they all offer the same thing, but the goalposts are different sizes for each......it's frustrating just trying to gather the information to start with.....
...seems a little unfair that you can't call yourself a sparky.....obviously you are.....(Mind you, Half the sparks I know don't have a single cert to their name, just operate under an elec contractors umbrella...so are quals even necessary? (Apart from getting a foot in the door?)
randyrat
 
W

wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
frustrating innit your qualified and capable and yet they still want you to bend over
 
P

Pastypies

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
I’ve noticed my local Building Control website will be introducing an online form for competent persons so as to enable them to submit electrical work.

I am currently registered with the NIC under their Domestic Installer Scheme; I’ve done the 2381 and 2391 Test & Inspection and will soon be taking the 2382 to upgrade to the 17th.

It has crossed my mind recently that if I can submit a job online to building control then why go through a middle man who is going to charge you best part of £400 a year for the privilege.

I have been in the DI scheme for about three years now and I would have to say in my experience that’s a lot of money for a quarterly news letter that gets chucked into the bin after about five minutes. Other than that I don’t think I have had any benefit form this scheme, it certainly hasn’t got me any more work be a member of it.

Reading these posts here would suggest that you do not have to be a member of a scheme to be able to submit jobs so long as you can convince Building Control you are ‘competent’.

My understanding has been you had to be a paid up member of the cartel in order to attain the title of ‘Competent’ and without this you could not submit jobs, join a scheme or you don’t work was the impression I got.
 
R

randyrat

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Hi Pastypies,
the way I understand it is this:
You can submit Building Notice so long as you are "competent". Unless you are in a DI scheme such as NIC, you have to pay £100 for each notice you submit, and LABC will decide whether or not to check the work. The advantage to the scheme seems to be that you can fully self certify without LABC involvement, thus saving the £100 (Each time).
(And saving the paperwork)

Randyrat
 
P

Pastypies

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
I phoned up my local building control today after I noticed that they will be introducing a section on their public access website for 'Input of competent person’s information'.

I took this to mean just that but was informed that this was no more than a directory listing of competent persons, why they have used the word input is puzzling therefore.

'Ah no' I was told, this is only a list of people in a government approved scheme. I told them I was currently with the NIC so if I opt out of the scheme am I therefore less competent than when I was enrolled?

The answer came back 'Well I suppose not, but you still have to be a member the government says so'.

It’s a bit like getting a public sector job back in 70’s socialist Britain, you can only get the job if you join a union, take it or leave it!

Don’t get me wrong I have no problem being a member of a trade body like the NIC I just wish they would do a little more for their money. Cracking down on the still vast numbers of people public and trade who are doing electrical work who shouldn’t be like kitchen and bathroom fitters etc.

I think for every one job I get another ten are done illegally, I even spoke to a police officer the other day who was going to rewire his kitchen knowing full well he is breaking the law by doing so but as with most people he couldn’t give a monkeys.
 
R

randyrat

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I think that we all know people who do it......I caught my mother the other day wiring in an extra socket.....cos "she's always done it". I explained the law, and she just chuckled at me......(shes 70).....
Its ingrained in society and people will always cut corners if they can. Shame the government make it so difficult to keep yourself as a tradesman on the right side of the law....I agree totally that the industry needs legislation and regulation, but a tradesmans a tradesmans a tradesman, irrespective of being in a recognised institution.....maybe local government need to do their own assessment of "competency" and then let you get on with your job.....
Randyrat
 
M

mikey12

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
hi ive done my part p and will shortly be doing my 17th regs i have a ecs card at monent for elec mates if i also register will i be able to work for myself as at present have only done minor works extra socket or lighting point or switch will i be able to do all domestic works as thats what i want to focus on its all confusing now i wont be working on own with electrician 25yrs experience help me i have a headache:confused:
 
M

micksow

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
so am i right in thinking i got 2360 parts 1 and 2 and 16th edition regs.....

working as a mate at the moment...working with electrical company can they give me a reference to give to jib to get cards or will most employers be ok with this as long as i've been doing it for a while.....

done 3 1/2 yrs of apprenticeship appx 15yrs ago and got back into about 18mths ago as a mate

any help would be appreciated
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
hi ive done my part p and will shortly be doing my 17th regs i have a ecs card at monent for elec mates if i also register will i be able to work for myself as at present have only done minor works extra socket or lighting point or switch will i be able to do all domestic works as thats what i want to focus on its all confusing now i wont be working on own with electrician 25yrs experience help me i have a headache:confused:
you dont have to join a cheme to do what you want to do, itjust works out cheeper in the long run
 
L

London Luke

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
And this all means nothing to the Customer!

There should only be one "Avenue" . You train , pass and then your legal and off you go. Then every time something big comes along your required to so a "short course " etc. It like Corgi, thats a mess. The public are ripped off and the members also. Its just money for nothing.

The amount of messing about these days is unreal:)
 
Test Meter - Forum Sponsors since 2007!
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

Reply to Competent Person Scheme in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

Top Bottom