Discuss Complicated old wiring issue- 3 way switch in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

jgotoff

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Hello, DIYer and first time poster here. Recently bought a house built in 1925, and am gradually working through adding and replacing the wiring, especially where the previous owners had done some seriously questionable work. I've run up against a real question mark though and I'm hoping someone might be able to tell me what I'm doing wrong or whether I need to call in some professional help. FYI the original wiring is old fabric insulated with no ground.

I wanted to move the light at the top of the stairs which is controlled by a 3-way switch, one at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top. At the bottom, the switch is in a 3-gang box with switches to two other lights (outdoor and bottom of the stairs). At the top, there is a 2 gang box, and 2 sets of wires coming into the box and 2 sets going out of the box... but only one switch. (They just had a blank space next to the switch that controlled the light at the top of the stairs!). There are two bedroom lights also on the same circuit.

When I went to remove the second floor switch to the overhead light, there a mess of wires, some taped together, one neutral just capped and not attached to anything, some spliced onto the old. I took a picture, but not really thinking about how complicated it might be to put back together, I went and un-taped everything and removed the switch.

Here's where it gets confusing. I tested each of the pairs of wires going in and out with a digital voltmeter, and only 1 of the 4 pairs registered any volts. When the downstairs light is OFF, I get a reading of 120 on my digital voltmeter; when the downstairs light is ON, the reading goes down to 7-10v. Why would it go down so much with just one light on?

Bigger issue--since removing the switch and separating the taped together wires, now, try as I might, I can't get the bedroom lights to come back on, though I can get the downstairs lights working fine. I've tried every combination of wires going into the second floor box. Why would the bedroom lights be affected when I only removed the switch to the hallway light? In one of my combinations of wiring that I tried, I could get a very very faint light in one of the bedrooms, which disappeared when the downstairs light was turned on... In a different combination of wiring, both the upstairs and downstairs lights turned into a 4-WAY switch--controlled by the downstairs switch and the switches in each of the bedrooms! When I flipped any of the three switches, one light went on when the other went off. (These were lights that never went on with the same switch before).

I assume this all has to do with some old fashioned way of doing 3-way lights that isn't really done anymore. If anyone could help guide me in the right direction so that I can get my bedroom lights turned back on, I would really appreciate it!
 
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Hello, DIYer and first time poster here. Recently bought a house built in 1925, and am gradually working through adding and replacing the wiring, especially where the previous owners had done some seriously questionable work. I've run up against a real question mark though and I'm hoping someone might be able to tell me what I'm doing wrong or whether I need to call in some professional help. FYI the original wiring is old fabric insulated with no ground.

I wanted to move the light at the top of the stairs which is controlled by a 3-way switch, one at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top. At the bottom, the switch is in a 3-gang box with switches to two other lights (outdoor and bottom of the stairs). At the top, there is a 2 gang box, and 2 sets of wires coming into the box and 2 sets going out of the box... but only one switch. (They just had a blank space next to the switch that controlled the light at the top of the stairs!). There are two bedroom lights also on the same circuit.

When I went to remove the second floor switch to the overhead light, there a mess of wires, some taped together, one neutral just capped and not attached to anything, some spliced onto the old. I took a picture, but not really thinking about how complicated it might be to put back together, I went and un-taped everything and removed the switch.

Here's where it gets confusing. I tested each of the pairs of wires going in and out with a digital voltmeter, and only 1 of the 4 pairs registered any volts. When the downstairs light is OFF, I get a reading of 120 on my digital voltmeter; when the downstairs light is ON, the reading goes down to 7-10v. Why would it go down so much with just one light on?

Bigger issue--since removing the switch and separating the taped together wires, now, try as I might, I can't get the bedroom lights to come back on, though I can get the downstairs lights working fine. I've tried every combination of wires going into the second floor box. Why would the bedroom lights be affected when I only removed the switch to the hallway light? In one of my combinations of wiring that I tried, I could get a very very faint light in one of the bedrooms, which disappeared when the downstairs light was turned on... In a different combination of wiring, both the upstairs and downstairs lights turned into a 4-WAY switch--controlled by the downstairs switch and the switches in each of the bedrooms! When I flipped any of the three switches, one light went on when the other went off. (These were lights that never went on with the same switch before).

I assume this all has to do with some old fashioned way of doing 3-way lights that isn't really done anymore. If anyone could help guide me in the right direction so that I can get my bedroom lights turned back on, I would really appreciate it!
Wow you really have problems. With out photos it’s hard to say. Talking about lights dimming, bad voltage drops are always related to your neutral wire. The cable coming in that has the one live comes from the panel. 3 way switches require extra wires for the trackers and since back when the house was built they didn’t have cables with extra conductors and no ground. You are probably going to need a license electrician to help you sort this out. It still going to be a challenge for the electrician and probably take some time but it can be done. Good luck
 
post a pic of the wiring at the switches.
Sorry for the delay, had a long work day... The red photo is the 3-gang at the bottom of the stairs, the middle photo is the 2-gang at the top of the stairs. The photo on the right is right after I took off the switch, before I separated the wires (kicking myself now). I did figure out which wires are going where upstairs (I think), but obviously things are connected somehow to the downstairs lights so it's pretty screwy.
 

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Wow you really have problems. With out photos it’s hard to say. Talking about lights dimming, bad voltage drops are always related to your neutral wire. The cable coming in that has the one live comes from the panel. 3 way switches require extra wires for the trackers and since back when the house was built they didn’t have cables with extra conductors and no ground. You are probably going to need a license electrician to help you sort this out. It still going to be a challenge for the electrician and probably take some time but it can be done. Good luck
I just posted pics, but I know it's probably too much of a mess and I need to call in the big guns... I was trying to connect various wires upstairs in different combinations and write down the results but there are so many variables. I wasn't planning to replace all the wiring this month but I guess that's the other option!
 
I was trying to connect various wires upstairs in different combinations and write down the results but there are so many variables.

Hello, DIYer and first time poster here. Recently bought a house built in 1925, and am gradually working through adding and replacing the wiring, especially where the previous owners had done some seriously questionable work. I've run up against a real question mark though and I'm hoping someone might be able to tell me what I'm doing wrong or whether I need to call in some professional help. FYI the original wiring is old fabric insulated with no ground.

I wanted to move the light at the top of the stairs which is controlled by a 3-way switch, one at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top. At the bottom, the switch is in a 3-gang box with switches to two other lights (outdoor and bottom of the stairs). At the top, there is a 2 gang box, and 2 sets of wires coming into the box and 2 sets going out of the box... but only one switch. (They just had a blank space next to the switch that controlled the light at the top of the stairs!). There are two bedroom lights also on the same circuit.

When I went to remove the second floor switch to the overhead light, there a mess of wires, some taped together, one neutral just capped and not attached to anything, some spliced onto the old. I took a picture, but not really thinking about how complicated it might be to put back together, I went and un-taped everything and removed the switch.

Here's where it gets confusing. I tested each of the pairs of wires going in and out with a digital voltmeter, and only 1 of the 4 pairs registered any volts. When the downstairs light is OFF, I get a reading of 120 on my digital voltmeter; when the downstairs light is ON, the reading goes down to 7-10v. Why would it go down so much with just one light on?

Bigger issue--since removing the switch and separating the taped together wires, now, try as I might, I can't get the bedroom lights to come back on, though I can get the downstairs lights working fine. I've tried every combination of wires going into the second floor box. Why would the bedroom lights be affected when I only removed the switch to the hallway light? In one of my combinations of wiring that I tried, I could get a very very faint light in one of the bedrooms, which disappeared when the downstairs light was turned on... In a different combination of wiring, both the upstairs and downstairs lights turned into a 4-WAY switch--controlled by the downstairs switch and the switches in each of the bedrooms! When I flipped any of the three switches, one light went on when the other went off. (These were lights that never went on with the same switch before).

I assume this all has to do with some old fashioned way of doing 3-way lights that isn't really done anymore. If anyone could help guide me in the right direction so that I can get my bedroom lights turned back on, I would really appreciate it!
The red photo is the 3-gang at the bottom of the stairs, the middle photo is the 2-gang at the top of the stairs. The photo on the right is right after I took off the switch, before I separated the wires (kicking myself now).
 

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think it's time to call in a spark. he/she will have the equipment needed to ID those wires and connect correctly. in the UK it would be about an hour's time. over there in USA, factor in a 2lb burger meal, 4 coffees, a case of Budweiser and you'relooking at a half a day. 🤣🤣🤣
 
The red photo is the 3-gang at the bottom of the stairs, the middle photo is the 2-gang at the top of the stairs. The photo on the right is right after I took off the switch, before I separated the wires (kicking myself now).
I have to agree with @teletrix you really need an electrician with a meter to OHM those wires out and find out what cable is doing what. You have one box with 4 cables and one of them is your live cable and it appears that maybe one of the cables is being used as the travelers and another cable is probably being used as your third wire for your light upstairs. Hire an electrician and I know that you want to complete this job but you don’t have the right equipment to do so.
 
I have to agree with @teletrix you really need an electrician with a meter to OHM those wires out and find out what cable is doing what. You have one box with 4 cables and one of them is your live cable and it appears that maybe one of the cables is being used as the travelers and another cable is probably being used as your third wire for your light upstairs. Hire an electrician and I know that you want to complete this job but you don’t have the right equipment to do so.
Thanks, appreciate the honest advice!
 

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