Continuous earth fault

[Haphazard81]

Hi,

We've lived in the house since Feb 2009. We've had a few tradesmen in and out over the years. We wanted to make sure the electrics got properly certified so used a company locally. They said there was no continuous earth so they used 2 radials a 20 amp and something else which will make sense to you sparks to adhere to regs.

Now what is annoying is that we can't have too many devices such as tumble, washing machine,,computer and kettle on without the odd trip. We think it's the tumble tripping the electrics.

We've had 2 separate people out and one guy recently who has made the electrics safer as there were cables not screwed in correctly etc. He has taken all of the wall sockets off and we simply can't find those earth fault.

Is there such a device (apart from the 3 pin plug that tells you theres a fault when you plug it in) that can tell you were an earth problem lays?

Without tearing apart the entire electrics I think we just have to live with it. We spent 140 quid and tbf the guy was good. He spent hours 5 in all in all trying to find the issue and fixing a couple of other bits.

Anyone got any ideas?

I thought leaving the gas on and going out and leave the insurers to sort out the mess was my next point. Jk!

 

[timhoward]

It sounds like you originally had a ring final circuit, but it wasn't a ring as the earth conductor wasn't continuous.
Two options - find and fix the issue, or do what they did and treat it as two radial circuits and de-rate the breaker. Both options are valid.
To answer your question, yes, there are ways of tracking down where the earth is broken, or at least finding the last point it is continuous on each leg.
Did anyone get as far as saying "the break is between here and here"? If not I'm afraid you need to find someone else as an experienced sparks should at least get that far by doing a few simple "dead tests" on the circuit (with the power off).

 

[SparkySy]

Hi
@timhoward beat me to it but exactly what he said! A good electrician with a multifunction tester should be able to find that within 5 hours in any normal domestic situation. Actually fixing it may take a bit longer depending on where it is and what route can be easily taken.
Sy

 

[Pretty Mouth]

From what you have described, the problem is a broken CPC (earth conductor) on a ring final circuit. A good electrician should be able to narrow down the fault to between 2 accessible points within a reasonable amount of time. If the fault is not at either of those points, then it's likely there's a hidden joint somewhere, that has come loose, typically in the floor void.

 

[timhoward]

I'd also add that finding these two points it would not involve 'tearing the electrics apart' or even removing every socket front.

 

[buzzlightyear]

We spent 140 quid and tbf the guy was good. He spent hours 5 in all in all trying to find the issue and fixing a couple of other bits.

£28 per hour thats cheep ,me £40.00 pounds i must be in wrong game .
how many sparks to change a light bulbs in a house. or to get wrong and one to get it right .lol.

 

[UNG]

The curious one from the OP that is a bit confusing is how do you split a ring into 2 radials without knowing where the fault is
Moving on from that repair, does that not give the next "electrician" a clue where to look for the fault unless the first one got it all wrong

This thread is a clear indication of how the industry is going and speaks volumes when a supposed "electrician" can't locate a fault in a circuit that consists of probably no more than 50 - 70m of cable, a number of socket outlets and possibly a hidden JB or two in 5 hours

 

[telectrix]

5 hours is about right when you allow for getching tools and tester 20 yards from the van, a 2 hour lunch break, smoke breaks and beer breaks. ?

 

[Mjward]

I've got a related issue so thought it best to add to this existing post:

When we moved in I went around the house with my Kewtech socket tester and noted the readings at each point. After making changes to the ground floor I am now ready to do the first floor, where I originally noted there was an earth fault at every upstairs socket.

My view was/is that as I'm changing all the sockets anyway, I'll eventually remedy this naturally as it's most likely a cpc that's not been screwed in properly at a socket or junction. However I just wanted to check with the pros in case it's something more annoying like a random nicked wire under plaster, what tests I can do between points with my multimeter to narrow down its location, or will it require access to a continuity or PAT tester?

For reference, it's a ring final circuit on a 32a mcb

 

[telectrix]

I've got a related issue so thought it best to add to this existing post:

When we moved in I went around the house with my Kewtech socket tester and noted the readings at each point. After making changes to the ground floor I am now ready to do the first floor, where I originally noted there was an earth fault at every upstairs socket.

My view was/is that as I'm changing all the sockets anyway, I'll eventually remedy this naturally as it's most likely a cpc that's not been screwed in properly at a socket or junction. However I just wanted to check with the pros in case it's something more annoying like a random nicked wire under plaster, what tests I can do between points with my multimeter to narrow down its location, or will it require access to a continuity or PAT tester?

For reference, it's a ring final circuit on a 32a mcb

use a meter on continuity and a wander lead. measure from CU cpc ends to eack socket (dead testing, power off).

 

[Petej999]

Are you sure he was an ELECTRICIAN , need some further info to be convinced Mate, any paperwork issued??

 

[johntheo]

Going back to the OP's problem which I assume is a RCD trip, why would not having a continuous earth cause it to trip if you havn't a L to E or N to E fault.

 

[Mjward]

use a meter on continuity and a wander lead. measure from CU cpc ends to eack socket (dead testing, power off).

Will go through this weekend and yes re dead testing, the only type I'm comfortable doing!

 

[A Steak Pie]

Going back to the OP's problem which I assume is a RCD trip, why would not having a continuous earth cause it to trip if you havn't a L to E or N to E fault.

I believe he means the 20/16a MCB trips from overload when using appliances

 

[johntheo]

I suppose it could also be the RCD as any earth leakage can now cause a imbalance in the L N.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The OP @Haphazard81 was last seen 5 months ago, never returned after asking a question.

The new issue that @Mjward has seems to be at least two breaks in the CPC or no CPC at the CU, as there is no earth at some or all socket outlets on an RFC. Because it is a ring, a single loose terminal other than at the CU should only affect one socket-outlet at most. The wander-lead tests will be revealing.

 

[Mjward]

The OP @Haphazard81 was last seen 5 months ago, never returned after asking a question.

The new issue that @Mjward has seems to be at least two breaks in the CPC or no CPC at the CU, as there is no earth at some or all socket outlets on an RFC. Because it is a ring, a single loose terminal other than at the CU should only affect one socket-outlet at most. The wander-lead tests will be revealing.

The thread update notification was caught in spam.
My local store didn't have stock of the wander leads on the weekend but I used the time to change a few more of the sockets and map circuit routes which has me flummoxed in one particular room which has far as a can tell has either migrated to a radial setup or has spurs off of spurs. I am hoping herein lies the issue and will spend today mapping out where the wires are going. In the interim, I changed all the sockets in the room, a few loose earths but with new sockets in (and tight cpc fittings), the earth fault remained so post mapping, I suspect the wander-lead will be required to properly diagnose.

 

[Mjward]

Completed mapping of entire circuit. Changed all sockets, a few had loose connections but broadly everything was where it should be. Socket tester still showing earth fault. Have identified one shocker of a connection below, hoping it this causing the fault. Failing that, will have to check CU (off) for earth connection and then wander.

 

[Mjward]

Unfortunately even putting the wires that were taped together into a junction box didn't solve the issue. Given I've mapped the entire circuit, changed all sockets, checked all junction boxes, the earth issue must lie at the CU. I am comfortable with most domestic electrics but won't touch a CU...even if it's off. Time to call the professionals. Shout if anyone is in West Yorkshire and can spare a couple hours (paid of course!) otherwise will check the local classifieds.

 

[UNG]

Unfortunately even putting the wires that were taped together into a junction box didn't solve the issue. Given I've mapped the entire circuit, changed all sockets, checked all junction boxes, the earth issue must lie at the CU. I am comfortable with most domestic electrics but won't touch a CU...even if it's off. Time to call the professionals. Shout if anyone is in West Yorkshire and can spare a couple hours (paid of course!) otherwise will check the local classifieds.

Whereabouts in West Yorkshire are you located?