Discuss Could someone please clarify for me what is meant by the term "Method of seperation" in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Reaction score
5
Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:   American Electrical Advice Forum

Hi I'm soon to take the City & Guild 2396 course.

Upon reading the examiner report in particular December 2016 and June 2017 in the section "Verification" it states the following

December - 2016
"Majority of candidates were unable to explain the correct method of verifying Separation despite having Guidance Note 3 as permitted material. Many confused Separation with the method of testing SELV circuits."

June - 2017
"Majority of candidates were unable to explain the correct method of verifying separation despite having Guidance Note 3 as permitted material. Many focused on insulation resistance of SELV circuits instead.

I have read in GN3 and looked at the separation method and from what I can understand, in Page 24 & 25, as well as in the schedule of inspection under the section 6.0 - "Other Methods of Protection" under the sub section which states "Electrical separation for one item of equipment. E.g Shaver unit". It seems to me that this is the method of separation, however I'm not certain why majority of candidates specified SELV circuit.

Could someone please clarify for me what is meant by the term "Method of seperation"
 

telectrix

-
Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
66,487
sepatation is where band 1 and band 3 cables are separated. e.g. LV (mains) from elv (under 50V). various methods include compartmented trunking, spacing on trayor basket, routing cables at a distance from each other,
 

DPG

-
Esteemed
Arms
Patron
Reaction score
13,228
sepatation is where band 1 and band 3 cables are separated. e.g. LV (mains) from elv (under 50V). various methods include compartmented trunking, spacing on trayor basket, routing cables at a distance from each other,

I don't think he means segregation Tel, he means a separated supply.
 

Paignton pete

-
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
2,686
TBH not sure what is meant by methods of separation Myself Based on the 2016 and 2017 examiners notes.

I thought it was selv, where by there is no direct contact with between the incoming and outgoing. primaries and secondary’s are separated and current is transferred via the windings.
but the examiner says not!
 
Last edited:

SJD

-
Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
2,328
If I look at my EIC checklist (part 6), it refers me to 413, perhaps have a read of that section.

● SELV system, including the source and associated circuits (Section 414)
● PELV system, including the source and associated circuits (Section 414)
● Double or reinforced insulation i.e. Class II or equivalent equipment and associated circuits (Section 412)
● Electrical separation for one item of equipment e.g. shaver supply unit (Section 413)

It doesn't seem to mention much about shavers, despite that being mentoned in the checklist above.
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
TBH not sure what is meant by methods of separation Myself Based on the 2016 and 2017 examiners notes.

I thought it was selv, where by there is no direct contact with between the incoming and outgoing. primaries and secondary’s are separated and current is transferred via the windings.
but the examiner says not!
Hi Paignton Pete

This is also what I thought but as the examiner reports states that majority have failed in this. The report does not give a mention or a clue by what they mean the term "method of separation"
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
Isolating a transformer? Or separation within the transformer?

the examiners note isn’t too clear.

@h.abrar94 was there any more to the examiners notes.
Hi

No sorry that all they mentioned in regards to the "Verification" section

Similiar report has been stated in the examiner report on March 2019. They state the following

"Very few candidates demonstrated a suitable level of understanding the requirements for testing separation of circuits, with most simply stating the requirements for testing the insulation resistance of a SELV circuit."
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
If I look at my EIC checklist (part 6), it refers me to 413, perhaps have a read of that section.

● SELV system, including the source and associated circuits (Section 414)
● PELV system, including the source and associated circuits (Section 414)
● Double or reinforced insulation i.e. Class II or equivalent equipment and associated circuits (Section 412)
● Electrical separation for one item of equipment e.g. shaver supply unit (Section 413)

It doesn't seem to mention much about shavers, despite that being mentoned in the checklist above.
Thank you @ SJD will give that a look

It seems the like the C&G 2396 examiner report in some scenario they are vague and do not tend to expand more on the terms they use
 

Paignton pete

-
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
2,686
I believe the examiners are talking about candidates not explaining verifying (by testing) that the Separated circuit is actually SEPARATED from other circuits.
Candidates are only explaining how to test the separate circuit and quoting SELV as that's the most likely / common Separated circuit to be found.
Yes I think you’ve hit nail on head.

SELV is a red herring. Probably never mentioned in the question. Just the students assuming SELV.

lesson to be learnt here. Read the question.

I did the 2396. only answered 7 out of the 10 questions in the written as I ran out of time, but still passed Because the answers I gave must have been spot on.

one question was “what factors should you take into account when designing installations in a harbour?”

a lot of candidates started quoting codes for impact, water ingress rcd protection. Double insulation etc. How to counter these factors. That was wrong. The question didn’t ask for codes or how to counter or protect against these factors.

I didn’t even mention any codes or electrical protection methods. I did a list of 10 things to be aware of.
eg.
salt water, impact from rocks, stones in storms, contact with public etc….

an easy 10 points.
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
I believe the examiners are talking about candidates not explaining verifying (by testing) that the Separated circuit is actually SEPARATED from other circuits.
Candidates are only explaining how to test the separate circuit and quoting SELV as that's the most likely / common Separated circuit to be found.
Thank you @ Snowhead I seem to be understanding what the examiners intending now
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
Yes I think you’ve hit nail on head.

SELV is a red herring. Probably never mentioned in the question. Just the students assuming SELV.

lesson to be learnt here. Read the question.

I did the 2396. only answered 7 out of the 10 questions in the written as I ran out of time, but still passed Because the answers I gave must have been spot on.

one question was “what factors should you take into account when designing installations in a harbour?”

a lot of candidates started quoting codes for impact, water ingress rcd protection. Double insulation etc. How to counter these factors. That was wrong. The question didn’t ask for codes or how to counter or protect against these factors.

I didn’t even mention any codes or electrical protection methods. I did a list of 10 things to be aware of.
eg.
salt water, impact from rocks, stones in storms, contact with public etc….

an easy 10 points.
Hi Paignton Pete

Thank you for the above comment, congragulation on passing the design course

I've been revising lately and reading the various IET books such as the Design Guide and GN1 (Selection & Erection) as well as GN3

It seems to be hard to find past papers or useful materials to revise on

Could you advise me in any methods or techniques you developed to help you pass the course

Thank you in advance
 

Paignton pete

-
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
2,686
Hi Paignton Pete

Thank you for the above comment, congragulation on passing the design course

I've been revising lately and reading the various IET books such as the Design Guide and GN1 (Selection & Erection) as well as GN3

It seems to be hard to find past papers or useful materials to revise on

Could you advise me in any methods or techniques you developed to help you pass the course

Thank you in advance
Very hard. Virtually impossible To get past papers. I never found them.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Remember it’s open book. The questions are relatively easy once you have read and understood them properly.

I know it’s easy for me to say after the fact.

if you’ve done your 2395. which is closed book and you have a good round knowledge you will do fine on this open book.

the biggest concern for me is the writing. I’m a terrible writer and speller. this is why I only answered 7 questions as I took my time to get a good neat understandable answer across.
I used bullet points on nearly all my answers As this is tidy and the examiners markers will fine it easier to mark.

there was one question on my paper about harmonics. I think it was question 2. I ignored it and went straight to question 3 and thought I’d go back to it. I never did. This was a relief as harmonics is not something I was versed in at the time.

don’t waste time on questions you think are out of your comfort zone or will take time to answer when you can get an easy 10 points somewhere else. You can always go back to that question later.

if I’d wasted time looking up the answer to that question I wouldn’t have had time on another question I did do well in. Possibly I would have failed.

time will run away with you so just stay calm and concentrate on getting one question correct at a time.
Each question has 10 points so if you can get 10 good facts or bits of information on bullet points to each answer thats your 10 points. Move on.

Do not just do 7 questions like me and think that’s it. I’m convinced I scrapped a pass. I thought I would have failed only answering 7. Most people said they had answered all the questions after the exam. And there was a big fail rate. It was 67% fail on my round across the country.
it is a hard written exam, but only if you don’t know your subject And don’t read/ understand the question.
 
OP
h.abrar94
Reaction score
5
Very hard. Virtually impossible To get past papers. I never found them.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Remember it’s open book. The questions are relatively easy once you have read and understood them properly.

I know it’s easy for me to say after the fact.

if you’ve done your 2395. which is closed book and you have a good round knowledge you will do fine on this open book.

the biggest concern for me is the writing. I’m a terrible writer and speller. this is why I only answered 7 questions as I took my time to get a good neat understandable answer across.
I used bullet points on nearly all my answers As this is tidy and the examiners markers will fine it easier to mark.

there was one question on my paper about harmonics. I think it was question 2. I ignored it and went straight to question 3 and thought I’d go back to it. I never did. This was a relief as harmonics is not something I was versed in at the time.

don’t waste time on questions you think are out of your comfort zone or will take time to answer when you can get an easy 10 points somewhere else. You can always go back to that question later.

if I’d wasted time looking up the answer to that question I wouldn’t have had time on another question I did do well in. Possibly I would have failed.

time will run away with you so just stay calm and concentrate on getting one question correct at a time.
Each question has 10 points so if you can get 10 good facts or bits of information on bullet points to each answer thats your 10 points. Move on.

Do not just do 7 questions like me and think that’s it. I’m convinced I scrapped a pass. I thought I would have failed only answering 7. Most people said they had answered all the questions after the exam. And there was a big fail rate. It was 67% fail on my round across the country.
it is a hard written exam, but only if you don’t know your subject And don’t read/ understand the question.
Thank you so much for the above advise. Much needed

How was the project design when you done it , did you have to provide various information from 3rd party resources when selecting your cable, DB, equipment, etc?

Thank you in advance

I have been reading the examiner report from 2016 up until the current one to date which all of them has been of a major help in understanding what they require.

However because the exam is a written exam it makes it more challenging to write and respond in a more technical term I believe.

What are the permitted books for the 2396 exam?
 

Paignton pete

-
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
2,686
Did my exam 2017. Project took about a year. Life just got in the way.

I found the project a long slog. Enjoyed it at first but became a bit sick of it later. I just wanted it done. I thought the exam would be the hard bit.

It was recommended 40 hours on project. Nonsense over 80 hours at least. Working full time as sparky and fitting family in, sitting down for any period of time was difficult.

I rushed the end of project and submitted it. It was obvious I had rushed it and I was given it back with recommendations to improve. I did and eventually passed.

your course tutor will explain requirememts of course. It’s been a while and it would be more accurate coming from the college than me. It may have changed and adapted.
but yes 3rd party resources like Hager mcb data sheets, disconnection times discrimination between makes of breaker etc…. Was required. I learnt a lot. In fact I learnt how much I didn’t know.
 

Reply to Could someone please clarify for me what is meant by the term "Method of seperation" in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

S
  • Question
As I understand it, they should have their own dedicated RCD After asking Mr Google I found this reference fro 17th Edition 2010Low Voltage...
Replies
21
Views
3K
sintec
S

New Posts (Please Reply)

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
Top