Covering electrical wiring for lighting circuits with loft insulation ?

[chris murphy]

"Hello All",


Could I get the Opinions of some of the Electrical Professionals Please regarding covering Electrical Wiring for Lighting Circuits with Loft Insulation - Here are some details regarding why I am asking - And although I THINK that I am correct in stating that this should NOT be done - the `Real World Practicalities` that I have been Reminded about:


I am advising a Relative about some Energy Efficiency Measures for their recently purchased Home - the most Obvious / Effective being to have the Loft Insulation Topped Up to 270mm thickness of Fibre Glass Loft Insulation.

This has raised the Question about the Lighting Wiring being Covered by the Loft Insulation - Which I think that I KNOW [?] should NOT be done - ?

I believe that I would have known many Years ago that this should NOT be done because of the possible Overheating of the Wiring - But I was `Reminded` by a representative from the Company who will be Installing the Loft Insulation that in almost ALL Lofts the Lighting Wiring CANNOT be lifted up to accommodate the Loft Insulation underneath.

He told Me that IF I was Correct in stating that the Wiring should NOT be covered EVERY Home that they Insulated would have to be Rewired for the Lighting Circuits - To Allow enough `Slack` in the Wiring to Install the Insulation underneath - Which obviously is NEVER done ! - And He stated that He would NOT want the Insulation Operatives to be `Pulling Cables About` in any case - Because of possible `Loose Wires`.

I have looked Online about Installation Methods for Loft Insulation and did find the comment about NOT Insulating over Electrical Wiring - BUT - As the Insulation Company representative stated this is NEVER adhered to by them or any other Loft Insulation Company that He has worked for.

And that this `Requirement` would STOP People from having their Homes Insulated because VER FEW People would be prepared to have an Electrician Rewire the Lighting Circuits to accommodate the Loft Insulation - ALSO - a very large percentage of the Company`s work is carried out under Grants for Home Energy Efficiency and these Homes would NOT be Insulated IF the Electrical Wiring had to be Redone - Thousands of Properties !


Obviously I realise [If this is correct ?] that with the use of `Low Wattage` / High Efficiency Lightbulbs [Lamps] there is not so much `Draw` through the Lighting Cables - and I assume that this means there is much less possibility of a Overheat Situation - ?? - But I was told that NOT Covering the Electrical Cables with Loft Insulation has NEVER been adhered to - Regardless of the Wattage Lightbulbs that were in use [NEVER even considered].

He / the Insulation Operatives were aware of the need for `Boxes` to enclose Recessed Lights prior to Loft Insulation being fitted.


I was told by the Insulation Company Representative that He could not remember this `Issue` EVER being brought to His attention and that He has worked for 3 Insulation Companies who have probably Insulated `Hundreds of Thousands` of Homes between them !

I would really appreciate the Professional Opinion of some Members - And I would ask Are the Electrical Cables in YOUR Lofts covered by Loft Insulation ?


"Sorry" to have written such a long Post about this - But I wanted to explain the situation correctly.


Chris

 

[SimpleSimon]

Alot of us on here will have theur own opinions on this topic.
Personally, lighting circuits should be fixed to the loft beams and not floating around.
if downlighters are installed a sufficient space should be cleared around each one so as no insulation could set alight or cause fire.
in regards to wiring, a sufficient assessment should be made on each individual household with the following.
-the load on the circuits.
- the thickness of insulation
- are there any other circuits ti group the cables with.
-Current quality of the cables.
all these factors an electrician will take in regard to suitably 'derate' the cable and make sure that its still efficient to carry the load of the upstairs circuit.
in cases of 270mm you may have to upgrade the cable to a larger size to accomodate a better cabke carrying capacity but i doubt it.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello SimpleSimon",

Thanks for your Reply - I agree that IF this situation was being Investigated as a `One Off` / Onsite Decision there could be calculations done by an Electrician - BUT My main reason for raising the Question is that there is NO Consideration given to Covering Electrical Wiring by these Loft Insulation Companies.

`NEVER even considered` was the comment from the Insulation Company Representative !

From His comments and actually thinking about what I have seen in Lofts Myself - I would suggest that there are MILLIONS of Loft Insulations that are COVERING the Electrical Cables.

By the way - 270mm has been the `Recommended Depth` for Fibreglass / Rockwool Blanket Loft Insulation for quite some time now.

"Thanks for your Reply".

Chris

 

[SimpleSimon]

Chris your absolutely right. Unfortunately its one of things that come up where the mentality is "its not our trade so we wont bother"
Hopefully these home owners have since had a periodic inspection and the wires have been inspected and assessed. More time and money for the home owner but could prevent a fire and save a life.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello SimpleSimon",

The thing is People do NOT have their Homes Inspected - And IF I am Guessing Correctly MILLIONS of Homes have their Lighting Circuit Wiring covered by Loft Insulation !

I am not writing about this because I think that this will be a `Revelation` to the Forum - It is just because what I was advising My Relative about caused Me to think about this - then to Ask the Insulation Company`s `Surveyor` [ Term used loosely] about it.

Then:

Because I am a Member on this GREAT Forum - Where there is obviously a WEALTH of Electrical Expertise and Knowledge - I wanted to get some `Feedback` about the `Real World` Installation of Loft Insulation - which is almost invariably OVER the Electrical Cables !

Chris

 

[Amp David]

For your lighting, providing its protected by a 6 amp CPD then theres not much to worry about.

Circuits like showers and socket circuits would or should be derated accordingly

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David",

Thanks for your Reply - Although I understand what You are saying about 6 Amp CPD [`Protection`] would there be still a chance of Overheating of the Lighting Circuits Wiring ?

I believe that My Relative has found that She HAS TO use some 100 Watt Incandescent Light Bulbs in Her Home - One of which is because a Low Energy Bulb interferes with one of Her Alarm PIRs.

And She also has Light Switch Timers Installed because She is away from Home frequently and uses these to give the Home a `Lived In` / Someone is In appearance - She / I have found that these can only be used with either `Good Quality` Low Energy Bulbs OR Incandescent Bulbs - As the Cheaper Low Energy Bulbs have a Constant Flicker due to the operation of the Light Switch Timers [Passing a small current ?].

She would be having these Incandescent 100 Watt Bulbs `On` for long periods of the Evening / Night in Winter - Any chance that the Loft Insulation would cause Overheating of the Cables ?

"Thanks for Your Help",


Chris

 

[Amp David]

Example.

1.5mm twin and earth installed above a plasterboard ceiling covered by more than 100mm of insulation, max current capacity of the cable is 13 amps and its protected by a 6 amp MCB.

A shower on the other hand wired in 6mm twin and earth, the cable has a current capacity of 27 amps and is probably protected by a 32 or 40 amp MCB. In this situation its an issue as OCPD is rated higher than the cable current carrying capacity.

 

[telectrix]

spot on there , amp. as long as the In of the MCB is < the derated ccc of the cable ..OK. with lighting, this doesn't usually cause a problem .6A is about 1300 watts or 13 x x100w lamps. it's showers , immersion heaters and socket circuits where problems arise, apart from the obvious one of heat dissipation from downlighters.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David and telectrix",

Thank You both very much for your clear explanations.

I have worked in MANY Lofts - Installing Tanks and Pipework etc. and I have seen MANY cases of Electric Shower / Immersion Heater / Power Socket Wiring run in Roof Spaces - especially in Upper Floor Flats - where is was obviously much easier to do this than to take up Floor Coverings and then Floor Boards - Drilling Joists etc. - Run the Cables and then have to Refix the Floorboards and Floor Coverings.

I would imagine that there are MANY Properties where the Risk of the Cables Over Heating is REAL ! - Perhaps especially for Electrical Showers and Immersion Heaters [?].

As I asked in My Original Post - I wonder how many Electrical Professionals have Loft Insulation covering Their Electrical Wiring in the Loft / Roof Space ??
Those who did NOT carry out the Wiring themselves [The Vast Majority] - Have they given ANY thought to what I described in their own Home ??

I have been told by My Relatives Husband that the only Electrical Wiring in their Roof Space IS Lighting Wiring - He knows this because He asked the Electrician that I advised Him to get after the House Purchase to carry out a `Safety Inspection` [I know that some members don`t like this Term].

The Electrician did find some items that needed attention for Safety Purposes and also some New Sockets were required in better positions for the T.V.`s etc. - and I would ALWAYS advise a Home Purchaser to have an Electrical Inspection carried out straight away.

"Thank You" again for your comments and Technical Information.

Chris - Heating - Plumbing & Gas Installer

 

[Amp David]

None in my loft as i rewired the house 8 years ago and made sure of it

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Amp David",

I wonder if the MAJORITY of Electricians - [AND Everyone else] HAVE got the Electrical Wiring in their Roof Spaces Covered by Loft Insulation ?? - Although PERHAPS they would have Found out about any 2.5mm - 6mm and 10mm Cables running in the Roof Space and then made sure that these were NOT Covered ??

"Just a Thought".


Chris

 

[telectrix]

ours are not covered in insulation, just junk shoved up there out of the way. then again it's only lighting except for a short run shower cable.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the o/p might want to have a look at 523.7 BRB and table 52.2 BRB which is as 6B..appendix 6 p(125) in the on site guide......

 

[Richard Burns]

The reality of the situation is that the insulation instillation companies are not concerned (as you say) with the potential fire risk entailed by not complying with the wiring regulations. Many homes will have been insulated over the wiring.
As stated above the usual wiring in a loft space is lighting which will not cause a problem. Because large electric showers are reasonably modern one hopes that electricians will be installing these correctly and taking the wiring out of the insulation. Because they are only used intermittently for short periods they are unlikely to cause a problem even when insulated, but there are many reports of fires from showers being used with too small a cable even when not insulated, so there will be a risk.
Until the insulation companies take some action this will be the real life situation.

 

[trev]

What would be better for us sparks would be installation of kingspan or something similar in the rafters. That way we wouldn't have to worry so much about it.

 

[chris murphy]

the o/p might want to have a look at 523.7 BRB and table 52.2 BRB which is as 6B..appendix 6 p(125) in the on site guide......

"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavour to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.

As You may have noticed from My various Posts I am NOT an Electrician - I am a Heating Engineer - When I completed Courses [Years ago] on the ACOPS Electrical Scheme - JUST to be confident of being `Electrically Safe` when working on Gas Appliances etc. - And the Course and Assessment for the CORGI Defined Scope in Electrical Installation etc. I had access to [and owned a couple] Various Electrical Regulation Manuals -Mainly from the Institute of Electrical Engineers - [now called IET ?] - and obviously at the College I would have been able to Refer to ANY Document - British Standards etc. that was relevant to the Course and `Exams` / Assessments.

NOW - especially as I do NOT carry out My own Electrical Wiring for Heating Systems etc. I do NOT have these Reference Manuals / British standards to refer to - Because I do NOT need to - Otherwise I would have ALL that I would ever need as a matter of course - As I am sure You and your fellow Electrical Professionals do have.

I have a Multitude of Reference Documents / Manuals and British Standards relating to Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety - Water Regulations - Health & Hygiene Regulations - and many more - As with Yourself I sometimes need to refer to an actual Regulation or British Standard / CE Mark / Details - Because these ARE relevant to My `Scope of Works`.

Thank You again for the references to these `Informative` / Regulatory Paragraphs - which I hope that I am correct in thinking that are in the Institute of Electrical Engineers [IET]Onsite Guide ?? - Hopefully I may be able to find these Online ?

Regards,


Chris

 

[telectrix]

What would be better for us sparks would be installation of kingspan or something similar in the rafters. That way we wouldn't have to worry so much about it.

exactly what i think. the problem is cost. a 8 x 4 sheet of kingspan is around £35. and the time taken to cut and install it. you can teach a monkey to lay fibreglass but sharp tools are needed for kingspan

 

[GLENNSPARK]

"Hello GLENSPARK",

Thanks for Posting the References that You noted for Me - I WILL endeavour to research those - As I am Interested in finding out more regarding what I enquired about - Although I think that the `Simple Explanations` that I received have put My mind at rest regarding My Relative`s Home - forthcoming Loft Insulation.

As You may have noticed from My various Posts I am NOT an Electrician - I am a Heating Engineer - When I completed Courses [Years ago] on the ACOPS Electrical Scheme - JUST to be confident of being `Electrically Safe` when working on Gas Appliances etc. - And the Course and Assessment for the CORGI Defined Scope in Electrical Installation etc. I had access to [and owned a couple] Various Electrical Regulation Manuals -Mainly from the Institute of Electrical Engineers - [now called IET ?] - and obviously at the College I would have been able to Refer to ANY Document - British Standards etc. that was relevant to the Course and `Exams` / Assessments.

NOW - especially as I do NOT carry out My own Electrical Wiring for Heating Systems etc. I do NOT have these Reference Manuals / British standards to refer to - Because I do NOT need to - Otherwise I would have ALL that I would ever need as a matter of course - As I am sure You and your fellow Electrical Professionals do have.

I have a Multitude of Reference Documents / Manuals and British Standards relating to Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety - Water Regulations - Health & Hygiene Regulations - and many more - As with Yourself I sometimes need to refer to an actual Regulation or British Standard / CE Mark / Details - Because these ARE relevant to My `Scope of Works`.

Thank You again for the references to these `Informative` / Regulatory Paragraphs - which I hope that I am correct in thinking that are in the Institute of Electrical Engineers [IET]Onsite Guide ?? - Hopefully I may be able to find these Online ?

Regards,


Chris

Well firstly thanks chris. i am still (trying) to learn this trade myself and consider myself green. As far as the OSG and the BRB/BGB are concerned its a case of hands in wallet i`m afraid.......

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello" ,

Insulating between the Rafters in a Home where the Roof Space is NOT going to be converted into Living Accommodation would NOT be a suitable Method of Insulating to prevent Heat Loss - The Inherent Ventilation of a Roof Space - Some Intentional and some `Adventitious`/ Naturally Occurring / Draughts means that even with Insulation between the Rafters the `Air Space` would be nearly as COLD as Outside Air - even with the Heat Gain from the Home - which would largely be dissipated by the Cold Air from outside.

In Fact I have experience of exactly this `Error of Judgment` from a Client who thought that He would Insulate between the Rafters of His Home prior to then wanting to have a Gas Boiler Installed in the Roof Space - This was NOT suitable - as the Roof Space was still Classified as `Equivalent to Outside Air` regarding Ventilation and Air Temperature.

I am sure that You have all come across Gas Boilers Installed in Roof Spaces - BUT - There are MANY Regulations and Requirements to be fulfilled to enable such Installations to be CORRECT - And the `Outside Air Temperature` Classification means that VERY FEW are `Correctly Installed` - Especially with a view to Installing a High Efficiency Condensing Gas Boiler in a Roof Space.

Unless an Enclosure is Designed and a Boiler that does NOT require Compartment Ventilation is Installed - Installing a Gas Boiler in a Roof Space is NOT to be Recommended - Even doing this there are MANY Regulations to be adhered to regarding Gas Safety / Isolation / Safe Access to the Boiler and Safe Working Platform etc. - A Boiler should NEVER be Installed in an `Open Area` of a Roof Space.

JUST the Simple Requirement of having to Install a Frost Thermostat - which would KEEP causing the Boiler to Fire Up because of the Roof Space Air Temperature would negate any Energy Efficiency of the `High Efficiency` Boiler - And exhibit the `Coldness` of the Roof Space when Insulated between the Rafters.


"Sorry" that I went into FAR TOO MUCH DETAIL - Just to state that Insulating between the Rafters is NOT a suitable Method of Insulating for Heat Loss from the Home - The Details about the Gas Boiler Installation were to `Illustrate` My point.


Chris - Heating Engineer / Gas Installer