UK Cowboy electrician

[davesparks]

Yet they still do. You can arrange the circuits to fit any inconvenience you like.
One lighting circuit one side and one the other, down sockets on one rcd ,upstairs on other etc.

They reduce, not minimise, all RCBO's will always reduce the inconvenience to a minimum by limiting it to one circuit. Dual rcd boards will take out multiple circuits, this is reduced inconvenience but not minimised.

 

[Ian1981]

They reduce, not minimise, all RCBO's will always reduce the inconvenience to a minimum by limiting it to one circuit. Dual rcd boards will take out multiple circuits, this is reduced inconvenience but not minimised.

If that was true then the regulations would specifically only allow a single circuit to have additional protection yet we have 531.3.5.2 and 531.3.2.
There is nothing in bs7671 that prevents the use of dual rcd’s, triple rcd’s or the like for subdivision of circuits for the installation
[automerge]1597313820[/automerge]

Baiting aside for a minute..

I don't have an issue with dual RCD boards.
Because of where I live I need to keep most items in stock so boxes of Hager RCBo's gets pretty expensive pretty quickly.

Any brand I stock I have to be able to get from wholesalers who deliver reliably to my area.
Ordering online can be hit and miss for delivery times sometimes a couple of days but more often nearer a week or beyond. Carriage charges are also sometimes prohibitive.

I always give my domestic customers the option and invariably they choose dual RCD.

I find people will not give the dual rcd board as an option . Single rcbo’s are better, but we also have to consider being economical with a customers budget, we might want to fit the most expensive accessories for our own individual liking but the customers budget may only allow for a more cheaper alternative, same can be said for dual rcd boards.
Maybe these type of clients are not for everyone or maybe you could help them out?

 

[nicebutdim]

CP Fusebox compact RCBOs are finally available. Their size is of little relevance, but it's worth noting that they also disconnect neutral and bring another DP option to a market that will benefit greatly from competition on price.

At less than £20 (for the avoidance of doubt, this price includes VAT), they're considerably more competitive than the small number of alternatives currently available.

 

[ferg]

BG from Screwfix, less than £20 for an RCBO. Short form, no functional earth, whats not to love

The week or so it sometimes takes for them to get here.

Edit:

And the BG part, the £20 each part when I have to keep so much stock. etc, etc.
[automerge]1597317170[/automerge]

Dual RCD boards reduce inconvenience, they do not minimise it.
RCBO's minimise inconvenience.

Minimise means to make as small as possible.

If you take that argument far enough then each individual socket, light etc would be on it's own RCBO protected circuit.

I agree wholeheartedly that RCBO's are the better solution but they are not the only one.

 

[Lister1987]

Bloodyvhel this thread decended into anarchy quickly.

we are trying to avoid discriminating against the short course qualified sparks,

In @Bob Geldoff1234 defence, he said 3 weak wunder, which would mean short course dropout ? much much worse than a short course spark.

 

[SparkyChick]

In @Bob Geldoff1234 defence, he said 3 weak wunder, which would mean short course dropout ? much much worse than a short course spark.

And I could infer that the average time served apprenticed spark is garbage compared to this particular short course spark if I was to show some of the garbage jobs I've seen that I know have been done by such people, or the shoddy new build installs done by supposedly reputable companies that make a big deal of churning out apprenticed sparks.

But it's not your route into the industry that will govern whether you produce rubbish work and/or follow the rules. It's your own personal work ethic and morals, which is why such statements are so annoying to those of us who went the short route (especially if we've gone on to undertake the same final qualifications as apprenticed sparks). We aren't all idiots, so it's been quite refreshing that this attitude hasn't been on display here for a while. Let's try and keep it that way.

 

[telectrix]

And I could infer that the average time served apprenticed spark is garbage compared to this particular short course spark if I was to show some of the garbage jobs I've seen that I know have been done by such people, or the shoddy new build installs done by supposedly reputable companies that make a big deal of churning out apprenticed sparks.

But it's not your route into the industry that will govern whether you produce rubbish work and/or follow the rules. It's your own personal work ethic and morals, which is why such statements are so annoying to those of us who went the short route (especially if we've gone on to undertake the same final qualifications as apprenticed sparks). We aren't all idiots, so it's been quite refreshing that this attitude hasn't been on display here for a while. Let's try and keep it that way.

you yourself are one of the few short course sparks that have gone into the short course with the knowledge and background to beat the odds and become a competent sparks. it's not like you've come from a call centre operative that doesn't know what a RCD is.

 

[Dustydazzler]

If I change a board now I don’t even bother giving both options Anymore

it’s rcbo Board or nothing

 

[ipf]

But it's not your route into the industry that will govern whether you produce rubbish work and/or follow the rules. It's your own personal work ethic and morals, which is why such statements are so annoying to those of us who went the short route (especially if we've gone on to undertake the same final qualifications as apprenticed sparks). We aren't all idiots, so it's been quite refreshing that this attitude hasn't been on display here for a while. Let's try and keep it that way.

I'll agree with you there SC, regarding domestics in general...but it is all dependant upon your highlighted point.....and experience. It can be the exception rather than the rule.

I hope we aren't talking about a bit of Prejudice here?
SCSM.....Short Course Sparks M.... ? No way am I taking the
kneeHeHe!!

 

[Lister1987]

you yourself are one of the few short course sparks that have gone into the short course with the knowledge and background to beat the odds and become a competent sparks. it's not like you've come from a call centre operative that doesn't know what a RCD is.

I resemble that remark. ?

 

[telectrix]

I resemble that remark. ?

i.m sure you know what i mean. some call centre bods don't know their arse from their elbow. i think you, yourself, know more than that.

 

[KennyKen]

I got nothing against anyone bettering themselves and in the past I have been very critical of the short course route, although you are correct. It depends on the individual. I have in the past come across the blokes who have completed the block intensive courses and then call themselves “Electricians”. That is annoying.

 

[Grant1987]

I got nothing against anyone bettering themselves and in the past I have been very critical of the short course route, although you are correct. It depends on the individual. I have in the past come across the blokes who have completed the block intensive courses and then call themselves “Electricians”. That is annoying.

I’ve missed a lot on here since my banter with Dave and ipf, I don’t see a problem with either rcbos or dual rcd preferably I do dual based on cost and personal preference but can see the pros of rcbos. As for short course, full course, time served, part time served it’s all on your tutoring and training as sparkychick mentioned and It’s easy for us to judge other ppl on here without knowing them but worth remembering that you will never stop learning in this industry.

 

[Grant1987]

And I could infer that the average time served apprenticed spark is garbage compared to this particular short course spark if I was to show some of the garbage jobs I've seen that I know have been done by such people, or the shoddy new build installs done by supposedly reputable companies that make a big deal of churning out apprenticed sparks.

But it's not your route into the industry that will govern whether you produce rubbish work and/or follow the rules. It's your own personal work ethic and morals, which is why such statements are so annoying to those of us who went the short route (especially if we've gone on to undertake the same final qualifications as apprenticed sparks). We aren't all idiots, so it's been quite refreshing that this attitude hasn't been on display here for a while. Let's try and keep it that way.

I’ve only just realised sparky chick you are from South Wales? Where in South Wales are you based?

 

[SparkyChick]

I’ve only just realised sparky chick you are from South Wales? Where in South Wales are you based?

I'm based between Newport and Cardiff.

 

[telectrix]

me only been to Cardiff twice in my life. once to a Max Boyce concert, and once for a shag.

 

[richy3333]

Isn't that 1 visit then Tel'

 

[radiohead]

You state a preference for dual RCD boards which obviously meet current regulations (other than TT systems I believe), but why not recommend RCBO boards given that they are now available for little additional cost? Less chance of nuisance tripping for the customer and simpler fault finding, should problems occur in the future.

For clarification here a duel RCD board is fully compliant on a TT system.
But it is necessary to install RCD protection to the internal link wiring (usually of basic insulation) in a metal enclosure, normally by means of a time delayed 100ma or 300ma RCD main switch either inside or remote from the DB, where typical TT Ra values are recorded.
As many of us prefer a backup S type RCD main switch on a TT because of total reliance on RCD's for earth fault protection, there is no reason not to use a duel board if preferred.

 

[pc1966]

As many of us prefer a backup S type RCD main switch on a TT because of total reliance on RCD's for earth fault protection

I would definitely agree that having two coordinated RCD in series (a 100mA/300mA S-type 'delay' then dual-RCD/all-RCBO 30mA 'instant') ought to be the norm for TT to avoid a single point of failure for earth fault protection.

As for dual-RCD boards in general (i.e. in parallel to reduce fault impact) I can see both sides of the argument:

• They are usually cheaper, and not as bad as a single RCD board (so not total blackness if something trips the one RCD)
• But RCBO are not so expensive today compared to the skilled labour for a CU change

I certainly would always go down the RCBO route, but would not say a dual RCD board is in non-compliance with the regs.

 

[nicebutdim]

For clarification here a duel RCD board is fully compliant on a TT system.
But it is necessary to install RCD protection to the internal link wiring (usually of basic insulation) in a metal enclosure, normally by means of a time delayed 100ma or 300ma RCD main switch either inside or remote from the DB, where typical TT Ra values are recorded.
As many of us prefer a backup S type RCD main switch on a TT because of total reliance on RCD's for earth fault protection, there is no reason not to use a duel board if preferred.

I'd been uncertain of that at the time of posting, so thanks for pointing this out.

In my head was a section from 3.6.3.1 of the OSG, stating that a split load board was generally not suitable in a TT system, but in an earlier section this is covered with reference to the wiring regulations stating that an S type RCCB should be incorporated where a split load board is used.

I do remember this being discussed on another thread where some members expressed a preference for fitting an upfront RCCB, rather than relying on a main switch, and I liked that thinking as it afforded protection from loose tails as well as from busbar links in a split load board.
[automerge]1597519091[/automerge]

• But RCBO are not so expensive today compared to the skilled labour for a CU change

It was this point which set the discussion off in a bit of a spiral. The member in question had expressed a preference for split load boards 'every time' and I tried to ask why when RCBOs are now available at quite reasonable prices. I could see why a relatively small price difference may be too much for some customers, but felt that others might be happy to pay a little extra to minimise potential disruption.