Dodgy trade pictures for your amusement! - 1 Million Views!

[brianmoooore]

Is the heavily taped up cpc of the blue/brown T&E disappearing into the ceiling being used as a perm. live/switched live to the fan?

 

[Raptor0014]

Is the heavily taped up cpc of the blue/brown T&E disappearing into the ceiling being used as a perm. live/switched live to the fan?

I’ve not untangled it all yet. I’ve got a number of points from this inspection and the list of remedial work keeps growing.

Landlord asked why I was taking light fittings down and sockets off as his last EICR was done in about 30-45 mins and never did any of this, I’ve been here 3hrs so far!

So I showed him this and said ‘that’s why, along with the fact you have a broken leg of a socket ring somewhere, no earth bond to your gas (meter was moved outside around 2yrs ago he said and it appears it’s never been re-bonded) and there is a socket being spurred off the shower so far.

 

[Julie.]

....and there is a socket being spurred off the shower so far.

Sounds pretty poor.

However, open question to everyone, just what exactly would be wrong with taking a socket outlet off the shower circuit (or anything else such as ufh, or similar); if electrically it had the usual stuff right such as rcd, Zs within limits etc.

General question on people's thoughts about this.

 

[DPG]

Sounds pretty poor.

However, open question to everyone, just what exactly would be wrong with taking a socket outlet off the shower circuit (or anything else such as ufh, or similar); if electrically it had the usual stuff right such as rcd, Zs within limits etc.

General question on people's thoughts about this.

It's not unlike a cooker circuit feeding a 13A socket.

 

[Raptor0014]

Sounds pretty poor.

However, open question to everyone, just what exactly would be wrong with taking a socket outlet off the shower circuit (or anything else such as ufh, or similar); if electrically it had the usual stuff right such as rcd, Zs within limits etc.

General question on people's thoughts about this.

You can’t run a 2.5mm spur from a 32A 6mm shower.

Not matter what the Zs is. The cable is only rated at max 27A.

So unless you ran it in 6mm, which would be some effort for a 2g socket then it’s not going to be compliant.

 

[DPG]

You can’t run a 2.5mm spur from a 32A 6mm shower.

Not matter what the Zs is. The cable is only rated at max 27A.

So unless you ran it in 6mm, which would be some effort for a 2g socket then it’s not going to be compliant.

Ah you never said it was in 2.5mm

 

[timhoward]

You can’t run a 2.5mm spur from a 32A 6mm shower.

Not matter what the Zs is. The cable is only rated at max 27A.

So unless you ran it in 6mm, which would be some effort for a 2g socket then it’s not going to be compliant.

That is exactly what my head said at first too.
But....
Overload protection - each appliance and supply cable protected by 13A fuse in plug. OK, two at once would be a bit interesting but unlikely.
(In some circumstances overload protection is allowed downstream - I'd need to read that bit again to comment further.)
Fault protection - it's RCD protected.

It's a truly horrible design but is it actually non-compliant?

 

[DPG]

That is exactly what my head said at first too.
But....
Overload protection - each appliance protected by 13A fuse in plug. OK, two at once would be a bit interesting but unlikely.
(In some circumstances overload protection is allowed downstream - I'd need to read that bit again to comment further.)
Fault protection - it's RCD protected.

It's a truly horrible design but is it actually non-compliant?

What about shower running at same time as someone has plugged a heater in?

 

[timhoward]

What about shower running at same time as someone has plugged a heater in?

That makes the upstream 32A MCB more likely to trip, and the spur is only drawing the heater current?

 

[timhoward]

What about shower running at same time as someone has plugged a heater in?

The breaker and 1st leg of 6mm to shower are correctly matched, so any overload here is dealt with normally by 32A breaker tripping.
Don't get me wrong, I hate it! But I can't immediately see it is unsafe.

 

[DPG]

That makes the upstream 32A MCB more likely to trip, and the spur is only drawing the heater current?

Im just thinking, if the shower and heater together were above the MCB rating, but not enough to trip it. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Raptor0014]

If it was ran in 6mm then technically it could be safe.

But as far as I’m aware a shower has to be a dedicated circuit and nothing else on it.

 

[DPG]

If it was ran in 6mm then technically it could be safe.

But as far as I’m aware a shower has to be a dedicated circuit and nothing else on it.

Which reg covers that?

 

[Raptor0014]

Which reg covers that?

I don’t know if it does. When I rang NAPIT the chap I spoke to said it should be a dedicated circuit.

Maybe it’s one of those fads being passed off as a reg?

 

[timhoward]

Im just thinking, if the shower and heater together were above the MCB rating, but not enough to trip it. Just thinking out loud.

As a B32 wouldn't trip at all with a load of ~46 amps, the question is how hot does the 6mm get for the duration of the shower.
It would trip after roughly 15 minutes with a 50A load.
We need someone to plug an EV into the other side of the socket!

But as far as I’m aware a shower has to be a dedicated circuit and nothing else on it.

I agree that angle needs exploring, what requires a dedicated circuit. Appendix 15 comes to mind, but I don't have book here.

 

[timhoward]

When I rang NAPIT

Last week NAPIT told me "not to worry" about an RCD taking 0.5 seconds to trip due to a PV system back-feeding and not shutting down very quickly.
There are some good technical people in NAPIT but I find them a bit hit and miss.

 

[DPG]

As a B32 wouldn't trip at all with a load of ~46 amps, the question is how hot does the 6mm get for the duration of the shower.
It would trip after roughly 15 minutes with a 50A load.
We need someone to plug an EV into the other side of the socket!

I agree that angle needs exploring, what requires a dedicated circuit. Appendix 15 comes to mind, but I don't have book here.

I don't think Appendix 15 would cover showers.

 

[pc1966]

However, open question to everyone, just what exactly would be wrong with taking a socket outlet off the shower circuit (or anything else such as ufh, or similar); if electrically it had the usual stuff right such as rcd, Zs within limits etc.

General question on people's thoughts about this.

If it is electrically sound then to me the problem it sort of violates the "principle of least surprise" in that you might have a lone socket that is still powered when someone thinks they have isolated the RFC/radials related to that.

Yes, you should never assume and always do your safe isolation tests, but we know that is often missing in any DIY work, etc.

A cooker outlet socket is clearly related to the cooker feed, so no problem there.

The odd radial or conversion from other use has that, but usually there the CU would be labelled with its new use. Yes, you laddie! Stop laughing at the back!!!

 

[westward10]

If NAPIT or any scheme for that matter say it is okay then there is your answer, it probably isn't okay.

 

[Raptor0014]

If NAPIT or any scheme for that matter say it is okay then there is your answer, it probably isn't okay.

I’m not sure you can make a sweeping statement like that.

I’ve not had any issues with NAPIT and always found them to be quite helpful. Even explaining things in detail for me when I ask ‘why’ to help me understand what they’re saying if it’s not immediately obvious.