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partp

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Hi Chaps.
I know that if you are qualified as a 'domestic installer', although you can do installation work and issue certificates, you are still not qualified to do 'Periodic Inspections' on 'dwellings' unless you also have 2391..
But how about 2392? does this also qualify you to do 'Periodic Inspections' or do you still need 2391 to do them?..
 
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montybaber

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  • #3
true :) sparkyork is dead right
 
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partp

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  • #4
Hi, .. well I was told when I did my EAL VRQ that It classifies me as 'competent' to do just about anything associateed with 'dwellings'.. and once registered with a regulatory body I can certify my own 'notifiable' work directly without having to go through the Building Control Office.. but I was also told that this doesnt include Periodic Inspections, and that I would still need to do 2391 before I can issue a Periodic Inspection Report..?? so I was just wondering whether a 2392 also qualifies you for that or if it has to be just the 2391?
 
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montybaber

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  • #5
AFAIK you dont have to be with any regulatory body to carry out a PIR....might be wrong though

I can see this turning into an interesting thread and the NIC is gonna get battered:D
 
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sparkyork

my exam centre where i did my eal course told me i could extend this and add that, and do a rewire etc, but they told me i couldn do a new build? why? if you can work out everything to do with a new circuit you can work out another 8 circuits etc

sounds like there trying to get some more dosh out of ya. if you wanted to do PIR's under the umbrella of a scheme provider then you may need 2391, and be registered as approved with them (i think??)

but if youre competent and can fill the paperwork out and legally sign it then think your ok.

rich
 
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partp

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  • #7
cheers guys.. it seems this issue is a bit like the top of my head... a grey area!..
 
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montybaber

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  • #8
I think the NIC only allow approved contractors to do PIR's using NIC forms etc so thats prob what they meant as you would need 2391 to gain approved contractor status.

But that is NIC, and generic paperwork is avaliable
 
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partp

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  • #9
As far as Im aware you can do a new build with the EAL VRQ.. but not sure if your allowed to sign the Initial Verification Cert for it though without Building Control being involved..?? although.. like the Periodic Inspection Report.. I cant see why not if you're signed with a regulatory body??

Ah.. Cheers monty that makes a lot of sense, That would mean that Its just at the discretion of your regulatory body rather than a statutory requirement to get the extra quals...
I think that about clears it up!
 
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montybaber

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  • #10
A PIR itself is'nt notifiable so a regulatory body or BC will not need to get involved, problem comes when the customer specifies that it has to be a NIC PIR (which they should'nt be able to do IMO)
 
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PAUL M

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  • #11
you do have to have 2391 to add periodics to your nic enrolement you allso have to pay another £300 or so for the periodic registration fee you allso have to have indemnity insurance of £1.5 million,or you can just do them anyway and issue the green certs(some orgs wont accept).
 
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Dinosaur

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
2392 only allows you to carry out initials, on your own work. To do periodics you need 2391. 2392 is a stepping stone qualification working towards the 2391. It was brought in (i think) in an attempt to mask the very low pass rate of the 2391 (somewhere in the region of 30% nationally).
 
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montybaber

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  • #13
Why do you need 2391 to do periodics?
 
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sparkyork

you dont, you just need 2391 if you wanna do periodics under a scheme provider, otherwise if your not with a scheme provider and havnt done 2391 then so long as you are competent then you can do them, your still signing it and your still binding yourself to that document.
 
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partp

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  • #15
.. so to sum up so far.. 2391 is not in anyway a legal requirement for doing PIRs, but if you want to register the documentaion with your Regulatory Body, then 2391 is generally a requirement that the various regulatory bodies insist upon before they allow their members to register PIR documentation with them..
... any advances on this??
 
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DYCHE4230

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  • #17
So who normally asks for the PIR to be registered to your governing body....Is it typically Insurance companies, local building control, landlords etc....?????
 
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partp

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  • #18
When you say 'governing body' do you mean Building Control or one of the regulatory self cert scheme bodies?
If you mean a self cert scheme such as elecsa, nicie, napit etc, then if you are registered with one, (which isnt compulsory..) then they will expect you to send them copies of all the certificates that you issue to customers, but remember that the PIR is not notifiable work so although your self cert scheme body may want a copy of it.. it doesnt need to be given to your Building Control authority anyway.
Its usually insurance companies or estate agents who ask for the PIR. some of these, in fact.. probably most of these will tell their customers that the PIR needs to be done by a NIC registered competent person. But remember.. this is just their preference as their is no legal obligation for this. infact, from what I can gather so far, anyone who meets the 'competent person' criteria' is qualified to issue a valid, legitimate PIR. whether or not an insurance co or estate agent cjosses to accept it without the inspector having NIC membership is completely up to them.
 
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Carter

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  • #19
My understanding is that all that is legally required of a person undertaking a P.I.R. for an Electrical Installaion is that they are competent. Possesion of the City & Guilds 2391 satisfies that need to prove competence but is not the only means.
 
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sparkyork

kind of but the emphasis on the 2391 prooving competence is not striclty true, you need the 2391 to join a scheme provider and to do a PIR through a scheme provider.
If you are competent you can do a pir, reagrdless of your qualifications
 
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greekislandlover

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  • #21
Yes, but if the **** hits the fan at some future date, and you were called upon to prove competence, how would you do that? I do wonder how most of us would prove this. OK - 2191 in itself may not prove competence as relevant experience and current knowledge would be factors, but it would be a big part of it.
 
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sparkyork

yes quite right but like you say it doesnt proove competence so, so long as youve filled all the paperwork out properly and covered your self by ticking all the right boxes etc then you are covered if it goes belly up, as you know that document is a legal document that you have signed stating the condition of said installation, if something went wrong then the effected party would surely try and proove incompetence but how can they do this when you have produced a proper pir report?
i do see what your saying but treat it like this, what if you filled a Domestic installion certificate out when not registered with a scheme provider etc? your still testing, siging and certifying that job, not much difference between legal impacts of either situation, just gotta make sure you state the extent of works covered etc. until someone says you have to have this qual to do this type of work then id just carry on as usual, think alot is down to each person and how they rate there own competence, i.e C&G electrical installation, time in the trade etc i have no doubt that i could carry out a pir resonably well but i would need to confirm Code numbers for things as im not that up on these, but that wouldn stop me from completing a PIR as i would find this informtion out via reference books etc.

rich
 
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Gazza D

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  • #23
I carry out PIRs on a local landlords bedsits, I use generic paperwork. However after submitting them to the local council he was told they were not acceptable as they were not under the umbrella of a 'governing body'. I phoned the council and explained I was competent to carry out these inspections, after a bit of argueing, I had to take all my qualifications down to the council offices so that I could be out on their ''competent persons register'' but this now means that they do all my part p paperwork for me!!
 
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ngoodson1969

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
I am with Elecsa, I don't have 2391 or 2392, but have been told by Elecsa that as long as I'm competent to do them then I am allowed to do PIRs.
I did a one day IET course a month or so ago and did my 1st PIR the other day.
 

Amp David

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Mentor
Arms
I think if you don't take the so called 'extra' for PIRs when you join a scheme, you won't be allowed to issue your PIRs on scheme providers certs either. By this I mean displaying their logo on your certs.

To do a sucessfull PIR, you just need to be competent in doing so.
 
competance is the key word !!! and don,t forget to have indemnity insurance !!!! pirs are not notifieable so you do not need to belong to a governing body

Rich:)
 
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bugsy

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  • #27
P.I.R. certificates are available off the shelf from Alphatek , to carry out PIR requires you to be a competant person . so qualifications and experiance count having said that who's to say an op with 2391 won't do a rush job , or just a visual. the only legal requirements are EWI even BS 7671 is not a legal requirement.
The good guy's with morals are spending dosh on qualis when Mr. esentric gets away with a francihise
and Bob the builder takes a flyer!
 
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dixon9

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
Hi Chaps.
I know that if you are qualified as a 'domestic installer', although you can do installation work and issue certificates, you are still not qualified to do 'Periodic Inspections' on 'dwellings' unless you also have 2391..
But how about 2392? does this also qualify you to do 'Periodic Inspections' or do you still need 2391 to do them?..

You do not have to have 2391 to carry out PIR´s. As long as you are competent then you can test and use generic paperwork.

However, some Part P bodies want to charge you for using THEIR own logo paperwork and will insist on certain certification or seperate assessment from your normal Part P assessment.
 
im with th nic and i was told im allowed to do periodic without the 2391 and can add it to my domestic installer scope for which they will quite happily remove more money from my bank account for. however they do reccomend the 2391but thats as far as they go.
i would recommend doing it for anyone though as i found it quite informative
the ony reason i am planning on adding it to my scope is because some letting agencies like the logo and hopefully i will make my money back with the extra work
 
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