Does a three-pin socket used for Electrical Vehicle charging need a earth electrode or open PEN fault detection device?

[johnwicklover]

As the title says, does a three-pin socket (external) used as charging point need an earth electrode or open PEN fault? Are mode 1 and mode 2 exempt from this ?

I was under the impression that anything used as EV charging point and if located externally, the installation would need to have either TT or open PEN fault detection device, if the supply to the site/building is TN-C-S.

The charger will draw max of 12amps.

Thanks.

Regards,
J

 

[Julie.]

No, as far as the regs are concerned it's just a standard outlet (requiring rcd etc).

However I think 'granny chargers' should be prohibited as they don't properly provide the protection normally afforded by a normal charge point, and they run at 100% load permanently - not really the sort of load expected on a 13A socket outlet.

So it would be good practice to add it, but the danger is the outlet may be used for 'normal' loads which would be better on tcns

 

[timhoward]

I'm following this thread as I recently raised a very similar question, and no one bit, for probably understandable reasons as it's a horrible question!
In my case it was a 16A socket though.

I asked :
My more philosophical question is if you take a plain and simple 16A socket and decide to plug an EV into it does it, or does it not become mode 1 charging under section 722, and the delightful 722.411.4.1 then applies?

Or is that just too far fetched?"

 

[timhoward]

Sorry @Julie cross post

 

[Julie.]

The problem is the term charging point, a standard socket isn't this, the charging point is actually the 'granny charger' itself or a proper charge point (they are not chargers, the actual charger is in the car).

As for any point that could reasonably be used....

That could imply that pretty much every outside capable supply, such as near the front door etc needs the extra protection, and that really is unreasonable

 

[timhoward]

My pragmatic conclusion was that if asked to fit an EV charging point, you fit an EV charging point.
If asked to fit a 13a or 16a socket, you fit a socket. Unless told at the outset it's for EV charging what more can you do?
In my case I was asked for a 16A socket for a welder which I provided. The parting shot was "It's great, I can use that for my car too". I decided not to hear that and ran!

 

[johnwicklover]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So even if the socket is labelled charging point, it won't require additional protections.

 

[Julie.]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So even if the socket is labelled charging point, it won't require additional protections.

It isn't a charging point, look at the definition in section 722 a charging point is the part which plugs into the car you do not plug the car directly into a 13A socket outlet, you connect the socket outlet to a charging point, then this connects to the car.

 

[timhoward]

It isn't a charging point, look at the definition in section 722 a charging point is the part which plugs into the car you do not plug the car directly into a 13A socket outlet, you connect the socket outlet to a charging point, then this connects to the car.

Being honest I find this confusing (amendment one):

 

[timhoward]

But, happy days, it doesn't matter. Just noticed mode 1 charging says:



Note "utilizing the power and protective earth conductors"
Isn't that the answer, for up to 16A?

(Edit, but the catch-all PEN conductor ban in 722.312.2.1 still applies of course unless one of the idents of 722.411.4.1 is used. )

 

[brianmoooore]

Add in Rolec's EVWP0020 to add a bit more confusion to the mix.

 

[timhoward]

Add in Rolec's EVWP0020 to add a bit more confusion to the mix.

Isn't that one just a glorified socket and RCBO?
I think that's an easy one, definitely an EV charging point, no built in OpenPen protection as far as I can see, so options are
1 - TT it
2 - PME + extra earthing as per indent ii) to achieve 70v touch voltage
3 - PME, and add separate upstream OpenPen protection to comply with indent iv)

(or just use a decent charging point in the first place!)

 

[brianmoooore]

It is exactly that. A 13A socket fed by a 10 RCBO, but they're marketed as entry level EV charge points.
Should be genuine TNS added to the list above.

 

[timhoward]

Should be genuine TNS added to the list above.

Agreed - I seem to recall you saying you can actually see yours in genuine, which is a lovely luxury...

My conclusion for now is that as @Julie points out it's really undesirable to be regularly charging an EV with a 13A socket in the first place, so the confusion (at least on my part) on how the regs apply to the worst way to charge an EV is pretty academic.

 

[johnwicklover]

Agreed - I seem to recall you saying you can actually see yours in genuine, which is a lovely luxury...

My conclusion for now is that as @Julie points out it's really undesirable to be regularly charging an EV with a 13A socket in the first place, so the confusion (at least on my part) on how the regs apply to the worst way to charge an EV is pretty academic.

Yes, it is but there are little buggies which charge from standard socket. Hopefully, they phase out the socket chargers and standardise the type 2. They are mainly for carrying stuff in short distances but still classed as an EV.

 

[pc1966]

It is slightly bizarre as the risk from a EV charger relating to use with a PEN is nothing to do with the charging, it is the big lump of metal on the CPC that someone might be washing outside. Dedicated high-rate charger or 13A plug I'm not sure there is a difference here.

But...is there? Do cars charging from a 13A/16A outlets actually use double-insulated (class II) systems so the PEN-connected-CPC is irrelevant?

 

[Julie.]

It is slightly bizarre as the risk from a EV charger relating to use with a PEN is nothing to do with the charging, it is the big lump of metal on the CPC that someone might be washing outside. Dedicated high-rate charger or 13A plug I'm not sure there is a difference here.

But...is there? Do cars charging from a 13A/16A outlets actually use double-insulated (class II) systems so the PEN-connected-CPC is irrelevant?

I don't think so, they provide 230v to the car itself, so there is no guarantee that is class ii

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

No, as far as the regs are concerned it's just a standard outlet (requiring rcd etc).

However I think 'granny chargers' should be prohibited as they don't properly provide the protection normally afforded by a normal charge point, and they run at 100% load permanently - not really the sort of load expected on a 13A socket outlet.

So it would be good practice to add it, but the danger is the outlet may be used for 'normal' loads which would be better on tcns

Agree with Julie. Worth pointing out that i see a lot of burned out sockets as they just cant handle a prolonged load for several hours