Does changing a circuit load (Ib)...

[Ducksy]

Require the circuit to be re-tested?

I'm having a dispute with a colleague about a electric shower install.

I could swear I remember a Reg stating if the load (Ib) is changed on a circuit then it needs re-testing (at least I would have thought a MWC regardless if the kW is higher or lower).

I know people are going to say what about adding or taking away a spotlight, and yes that's a good point But surly it's different for higher current equipment.

Basically I think unless you change the unit like for like ie same kW rating then a MWC should be issued. But can someone point me to a reg that backs that up statement.

Many thanks.

 

[Darkwood]

Any additions, alterations or new circuits will need to be tested and confirmed they meet the current regulations and issued with a cert', so in essence yes, if your changing like for like then its more relaxed but manufactures instructions must be met and if the circuit didn't comply then it should be updated...also any electrical work carried out by any professional should be tested anyway regardless.

I find this a strange question as any work should be tested ...how would you know the previous work or your work didn't have an issue!!!!!!!

PS .. adding a spotlight ..how would you know the circuit is safe without testing ?

There is no specific regulation its your professional approach to always test!

 

[guest119]

Dont you mean re calculated/design check?

 

[Ducksy]

Thanks. I work for a shower manufacture. I repair shower units or replace like for like As it stands, I can only "advise" on any minor site faults. But providing it's not dangerous (like 2.5mm feeding a 10.5kw) my work is not effected. We don't issue MWC as its only the shower unit we work on, not the customers wiring.

But recently as regarding changing of units I've been told that it's ok to change a shower's power rating without providing a MWC. Which I think is wrong because we are changing the circuit designs load therefor a MWC should be issued.

I just wanted to know if there Is a specific Reg that says it should be tested after changing the load? And should a cert to be issued.

Thanks again for the replies.

 

[davesparks]

You should really be checking the basic safety requirements and issuing an MWC for every shower you replace.

You can't say you aren't touching the house wiring unless of course you get someone else to disconnect the old shower and connect the new one

 

[Darkwood]

Yes now you have explained then as Davesparks says .... You should be assessing the safety of all existing wiring and the methods they are installed in.
If a shower was put in before rcd requirements and you exchange it like for like then your new shower will express an rcd is required so you will need to update the circuit as you are required to comply to the manufacturers instructions, any sizing upgrade will also need to be assessed in case a cable increase is required.
A certificate will need to be issued regardless to show you have taken measures to ensure the existing circuit is in compliance and safe.

This is not like changing a socket top where a DIYer may do it without a thought for any testing this is a company doing an Electrical job be it just a change over of shower or upgrade and requires confirmation all is safe and sound and meets requirements.

Where would you stand if someone is killed in a shower changeover you did and the cause was a fault like a high inpedance short to earth making the plumbing live and the report says a rcd would have saved a life... The first port of call is why you fitted a shower without testing the existing or upgrading to include rcd --- and trust me your company will drop you personally in it to save their own asse...you'd be looking at manslaughter chargers too unless you can prove that you carried out all the necessary checks and complied to the regs when changing the shower and adding a RCD if not already fitted.

Im very concerned you don't issue a cert' regardless and worry how many showers you have done which may not comply, ignorance will not save your --- in court, it sounds like the company you work for is keeping costs down to keep contracts or get work but your the Electrician here so you should be telling them you have to provide cert's not questioning their practices and scratching your head.

As a professional even if I got called to change a socket top I would still do some testing to confirm correct earthing etc...although if installed to older regs with no rcd I would advise to upgrade...on the other hand a shower has it written in its installation instructions it must be protected by an rcd so in this case you cannot change like for like if no rcd was fitted until you upgrade the circuit to incorporate one.

 

[Spoon]

But providing it's not dangerous (like 2.5mm feeding a 10.5kw) my work is not effected.

How do you know its not dangerous unless you check the circuit out. The cable might look the correct size for the shower at the shower end but how do you know its not going through 5 meters of loft insulation before hitting the shower?

 

[Rockingit]

This ultimately has to hang on the question of whether or not we consider an electric shower as part of the fixed installation. Given that when we do an EICR we don't go testing the shower itself, just the circuit that supplies it, I would argue that it isn't therefore part of the fixed installation in exactly the same way that a cooker isn't. As we only create test results for the cabling, we therefore don't have to retest per se as that isn't changing. However, as with every bit of electrical work, an evaluation of suitability needs to be done and that in turn may entail examining the circuit. As for certificates, I issue a MW.

 

[Pete999]

Require the circuit to be re-tested?

I'm having a dispute with a colleague about a electric shower install.

I could swear I remember a Reg stating if the load (Ib) is changed on a circuit then it needs re-testing (at least I would have thought a MWC regardless if the kW is higher or lower).

I know people are going to say what about adding or taking away a spotlight, and yes that's a good point But surly it's different for higher current equipment.

Basically I think unless you change the unit like for like ie same kW rating then a MWC should be issued. But can someone point me to a reg that backs that up statement.

Many thanks.

You are, by changing the shower altering the circuit aren't you? altering a circuit requires you to certify the circuit by means of a Minor New Works Certificate (MNW), By doing so you need to test the circuit. Reg 633.1 612. Don't mean to be dismissive, but as an Electrician you and, or your company should know this.

 

[andyelectric]

Thanks. I work for a shower manufacture. I repair shower units or replace like for like As it stands, I can only "advise" on any minor site faults. But providing it's not dangerous (like 2.5mm feeding a 10.5kw) my work is not effected. We don't issue MWC as its only the shower unit we work on, not the customers wiring.

But recently as regarding changing of units I've been told that it's ok to change a shower's power rating without providing a MWC. Which I think is wrong because we are changing the circuit designs load therefor a MWC should be issued.

I just wanted to know if there Is a specific Reg that says it should be tested after changing the load? And should a cert to be issued.

Thanks again for the replies.

If you were a DIYer changing like for like then fine, crack on. DIYer is not in a place of work.

HOWEVER. Working for a shower manufacturer: When you are replacing showers you are in a place of work and as such should be working to EAWR. It may be that even for a like for like swap that the circuit is not correct. If you have no competence to inspect and test the installation then you should not be doing the work.

Do you even conduct proper safe isolation procedures. I doubt it very much.

 

[a1guvner]

You are, by changing the shower altering the circuit aren't you? altering a circuit requires you to certify the circuit by means of a Minor New Works Certificate (MNW), By doing so you need to test the circuit. Reg 633.1 612. Don't mean to be dismissive, but as an Electrician you and, or your company should know this.

Minor New Works MNW, what is this new certificate you speak of, lol

 

[HandySparks]

.... As we only create test results for the cabling, we therefore don't have to retest per se as that isn't changing. However, as with every bit of electrical work, an evaluation of suitability needs to be done and that in turn may entail examining the circuit. As for certificates, I issue a MW.

I generally agree with you, Rockingit. When I do a shower change, cooker, or similar, I assess the existing wiring and protective device. I'll measure the Zs and test the RCD timings. However, I usually don't measure IR or R1+R2 unless the visual inspection suggests a problem. So, if I issue a MW cert, there'll be some blank boxes. How far do you go, and how much of the MW cert gets completed?

 

[Pete999]

I generally agree with you, Rockingit. When I do a shower change, cooker, or similar, I assess the existing wiring and protective device. I'll measure the Zs and test the RCD timings. However, I usually don't measure IR or R1+R2 unless the visual inspection suggests a problem. So, if I issue a MW cert, there'll be some blank boxes. How far do you go, and how much of the MW cert gets completed?

Sorry if my response sounds like I'm having a go at you, well I suppose I am really, if you aren't going to fill the MNW cert out fully why bother doing it at all?

 

[HandySparks]

Sorry if my response sounds like I'm having a go at you, well I suppose I am really, if you aren't going to fill the MNW cert out fully why bother doing it at all?

Because it's a convenient form for recording the steps that I've taken to ensure safety. Sometimes, in my view, it's not necessary to conduct every test on a form, particularly if you're not adding to, or modifying the wiring.

Edit: If there was a 'changing an appliance' form, I'd use that instead!

 

[Darkwood]

If I fitted a new cooker replacing old then yes I would fully test the circuit that someone else designed installed and powered .... and also if the new cooker required rcd protection and this was not afforded on the existing circuit then I wouldn't connect until it had protection.... look at what the councils up and down the country do now in their housing... all cooker changes etc must be issued with the correct cert' be it corgi gas or an Electric cert'.... this is to protect there asses as would be for any individual electrician doing the work.

I tested it and it was fine when fitted will mean nothing in court without the correct paperwork to back it up.... all is fine and dandy until the preverbial hits the fan.

 

[HandySparks]

.... and also if the new cooker required rcd protection and this was not afforded on the existing circuit then I wouldn't connect until it had protection....

Which cookers require RCD protection? Showers, yes, but cookers?

 

[Darkwood]

Which cookers require RCD protection? Showers, yes, but cookers?

I was generalising ..yes most don't but I have come across one that had the recommendation but a while ago as I dont do domestic.

 

[Geoffsd]

It's circuits which require RCD protection.

May be the same result but it's not the appliances that require it - even showers..

 

[Pete999]

It's circuits which require RCD protection.

May be the same result but it's not the appliances that require it - even showers..

Only if it's in a bathroom

 

[BlueToBits]

I think the crunch comes if someone gets hurt or there is a fire.
1) Responsibility and guilt can not be attributed to a person who can document that they have taken all due care expected of them as a professional installer,
2) Any responsible professional installer would be expected to know which side of any grey line they should be standing.
3) If its not in writing and they think they can get away with it, an employer will deny anything they have instructed an employee to do or not do if it is in their interests to do so.
4) Sleeping at night must be much easier knowing you can always prove you have taken all due care than hoping you won't be proven guilty of not.

Having said that, A more maverick approach to the 'old school' electrical installation I subscribe to, seems to me to be becoming the norm these days.