Solar Panels Does the home consume solar produced electricity that doesn't reach the meters?

[purityinjc78]

I have been trying to reconcile our electric bill with the Enphase production and consumption reports. I don't believe we have any kind of battery. There seems to be much higher production/consumption numbers on the reports that my bill and meters can't account for. The installer says that my house consumes electricity from the panels that don't make it to be registered by the meters. We practice net metering here, feeding the grid at certain times and taking at others. How can electricity reach our home without passing through the meters first...and I am talking about 100's of kWh's?

 

[dmxtothemax]

At what point in the system is the "production" measured ?

 

[purityinjc78]

I am using the reports and tools from the Enphase Enlighten program. Our electric company uses 2 meters.
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I am using the reports and tools from the Enphase Enlighten program. Our electric company uses 2 meters.

Pardon my ignorance concerning electrical set up as I am not an electrician.

 

[James]

Some types of installation do in fact produce from solar and only measure the excess electricity you are feeding back to the grid.

It is difficult to tell exactly what type of system you have without some pictures or diagrams.

 

[purityinjc78]

Some types of installation do in fact produce from solar and only measure the excess electricity you are feeding back to the grid.

It is difficult to tell exactly what type of system you have without some pictures or diagrams.

Please see the attached pics. Does that help? Thanks


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I have been trying to reconcile our electric bill with the Enphase production and consumption reports. I don't believe we have any kind of battery. There seems to be much higher production/consumption numbers on the reports that my bill and meters can't account for. The installer says that my house consumes electricity from the panels that don't make it to be registered by the meters. We practice net metering here, feeding the grid at certain times and taking at others. How can electricity reach our home without passing through the meters first...and I am talking about 100's of kWh's?

 

[James]

I am just not certain, so don’t want to give you incorrect advice.
I think a call to the solar installers might be your only option.
Sorry.

 

[dmxtothemax]

I think perhaps your system is making available a lot of power, but the grid is not taking this power in ? This is because the local grid has enough power available to it most of the time, and does not need to be topped up. ( this is when they buy power from you ). But when they don't need power they don't buy it. it just sits there wasted.

 

[purityinjc78]

I am just not certain, so don’t want to give you incorrect advice.
I think a call to the solar installers might be your only option.
Sorry.

Unfortunately, they are why I am asking.

 

[bluenev]

I too have 2 meters in the UK. My panels generate 3800kWh per year as shown by my generation meter like yours. (I cannot see any values on your meter... except 88888. Do the numbers cycle?)
I also have an incoming mains meter like your Revenue meter, which measures around 2800kWh per year. This measures how much we draw from the mains during the night or on dull days. Our meter is Smart and could actually tell me how much of our solar energy escapes to the neighbours and therefore what we actually use.
[In the UK we are paid for all our generation and a little for each kilowatt hour we export. They guess that we export 50%. My job, as I see it, is to use as much as possible.] We have a device that acts like a dimmer switch to force escaping energy levels into the water heater.
In general we import 2000kWh mains electricity for the house and 800 for charging the EV car and probably 3000 of the solar we generate. Eg 5800kWh in total per year.
The technical/magical bit. [the outside world always takes your excess solar, it cannot choose to take your excess or not. ]
In order for your panels to supply power to your home and also the outside world, your solar inverter raises the voltage above the incoming mains voltage 120V in the USA. High voltages like water flows down hill. My inverter can raise the voltage here upto 262Volts, where as the mains here is 230V. This higher voltage means that your aircon or dishwasher will use your solar energy not the mains, so long as you are generating enough. Eg generating 3.6kwh and using 3kwh for your kettle will mean 0.6kwh could escape or be used for lights, alarms, TVs or fridge motors.
We use a meter that displays what is being generated at any time. We use this to enable us to avoid solar energy leaving the building. Our smart meters in house display also gives us similar info.

In general I would expect you to be using the mains you import and 50% of your solar generation or less if you are away from the house all day. Hope this helps you to find what you use.

 

[purityinjc78]

I too have 2 meters in the UK. My panels generate 3800kWh per year as shown by my generation meter like yours. (I cannot see any values on your meter... except 88888. Do the numbers cycle?)
I also have an incoming mains meter like your Revenue meter, which measures around 2800kWh per year. This measures how much we draw from the mains during the night or on dull days. Our meter is Smart and could actually tell me how much of our solar energy escapes to the neighbours and therefore what we actually use.
[In the UK we are paid for all our generation and a little for each kilowatt hour we export. They guess that we export 50%. My job, as I see it, is to use as much as possible.] We have a device that acts like a dimmer switch to force escaping energy levels into the water heater.
In general we import 2000kWh mains electricity for the house and 800 for charging the EV car and probably 3000 of the solar we generate. Eg 5800kWh in total per year.
The technical/magical bit. [the outside world always takes your excess solar, it cannot choose to take your excess or not. ]
In order for your panels to supply power to your home and also the outside world, your solar inverter raises the voltage above the incoming mains voltage 120V in the USA. High voltages like water flows down hill. My inverter can raise the voltage here upto 262Volts, where as the mains here is 230V. This higher voltage means that your aircon or dishwasher will use your solar energy not the mains, so long as you are generating enough. Eg generating 3.6kwh and using 3kwh for your kettle will mean 0.6kwh could escape or be used for lights, alarms, TVs or fridge motors.
We use a meter that displays what is being generated at any time. We use this to enable us to avoid solar energy leaving the building. Our smart meters in house display also gives us similar info.

In general I would expect you to be using the mains you import and 50% of your solar generation or less if you are away from the house all day. Hope this helps you to find what you use.

Thank for your in depth response. Both meters are digital. Maybe the flash created the appearance of all 8's. In the end, the is supposed energy production that appears on system reports that I don't see on our energy bill that is based on the meters. I am being told the house is using energy that never passes through and is registered by the meters. It doesn't quite make sense to me, and it sounds too convenient for a company who binds itself to a power production guarantee.

 

[Zerax]

I seem to recall the situation in Hawaii where it was local law to install solar panels on any new build or during any major renovations (I think)... this was the case for many years... however, eventually they then had the issue that during the peak of the day, the grid was being overloaded with power. They then introduced another law to require PV and a battery solution.

I don't know if this situation has anything to do with the OPs situation... i.e. it's a local network type issue ?

 

[morgan51109]

I have been trying to reconcile our electric bill with the Enphase production and consumption reports. I don't believe we have any kind of battery. There seems to be much higher production/consumption numbers on the reports that my bill and meters can't account for. The installer says that my house consumes electricity from the panels that don't make it to be registered by the meters. We practice net metering here, feeding the grid at certain times and taking at others. How can electricity reach our home without passing through the meters first...and I am talking about 100's of kWh's?

Sorry if you have already had answers, but I believe from previous conversations that enphase (and similar products) take the reading from the roof, as the panels generating energy, therefore by time it reaches the meter, lossess have been factored in.

 

[BradleyP]

A typical install here in australia has the solar inverter feeding directly onto the house wiring in the switchboard which is after the meters. This means that you will pull as much power from the inverter as your current load requires and any excess will be pushed back to the network and through the supplier's meter. A typical supplier's meter here will only show you what you have imported and what you have exported. To know what your house is actually using from your solar panels usually requires a smart meter from the solar manufacturer installed in the middle which has a data cable running back to the inverter and between the inverter and the smart meter the two devices can work out where your power usage is actually coming from. i.e. Mains, Panels or batteries depending on your situation.

So in brief summary to your actual post question...yes, your house consumes solar produced electricity that does not reach the supplier's meter.

 

[robertay2000]

I too have 2 meters in the UK. My panels generate 3800kWh per year as shown by my generation meter like yours. (I cannot see any values on your meter... except 88888. Do the numbers cycle?)
I also have an incoming mains meter like your Revenue meter, which measures around 2800kWh per year. This measures how much we draw from the mains during the night or on dull days. Our meter is Smart and could actually tell me how much of our solar energy escapes to the neighbours and therefore what we actually use.
[In the UK we are paid for all our generation and a little for each kilowatt hour we export. They guess that we export 50%. My job, as I see it, is to use as much as possible.] We have a device that acts like a dimmer switch to force escaping energy levels into the water heater.
In general we import 2000kWh mains electricity for the house and 800 for charging the EV car and probably 3000 of the solar we generate. Eg 5800kWh in total per year.
The technical/magical bit. [the outside world always takes your excess solar, it cannot choose to take your excess or not. ]
In order for your panels to supply power to your home and also the outside world, your solar inverter raises the voltage above the incoming mains voltage 120V in the USA. High voltages like water flows down hill. My inverter can raise the voltage here upto 262Volts, where as the mains here is 230V. This higher voltage means that your aircon or dishwasher will use your solar energy not the mains, so long as you are generating enough. Eg generating 3.6kwh and using 3kwh for your kettle will mean 0.6kwh could escape or be used for lights, alarms, TVs or fridge motors.
We use a meter that displays what is being generated at any time. We use this to enable us to avoid solar energy leaving the building. Our smart meters in house display also gives us similar info.

In general I would expect you to be using the mains you import and 50% of your solar generation or less if you are away from the house all day. Hope this helps you to find what you use.

Hello,
sorry for asking a daft question. I have similar problem of not being credited from solar panels generated energy . I know exactly that my monthly usage is 100-120 Kwh from previous house.
I read your in depth post and following your logic I have used today during 7 hours in the daytime whooping 50% of solar 11,6 Kwh as recorded by Aurora inverter; and on top of it imported 3Kwh ; then magicaly exported between 10:51 and 21:10 whooping 9.2 Kw - difference of the export meter readings 17654.3-17645.1. Inverter shows etotal as 17458Kwh

Last Sunday I had solar system switched off and imported same 3Kwh during similar daytime routine ( I am autistic AS/combined adult ADHD).

One bed, one person , no TV , music players etc; kettle boiled once, 3 ip cctvboiled 1, toaster used 3 times, Whirpoll 6sense microwave 35 min crisp option, Tower airfryer 20 mins 200C, Tower electric pressure cooker 20 mins two washing cycles in Samsung. Constant use Kenwood fridge/freeze A ratings on most appliances; lights led/low voltage on when entering the dark area, phone charger, laptop use.

I might loosing something but this doesn't make sense or math . I attach wiring of the solar with export meter and my electric dashboard with grid meter, and meters readings for illustration.

My wild guess is that I export instantly drabs and dribs of DC converted in AC in the grid; and this is lovely confirmed by the inverter's visual display . No way , I would believe that above appliances could run smothly from dribing AC.

But for the purity of my investigation I may delicately contact the above companies' technical support hehe to clarify this highly unlikely possibility.

I use mains electricity from the grid as normal for my needs and running the solar system.

Now this is where meters/wiring blah blah blah magic starts. FiT account is registered not in my name. Therefore net metering out of consideration. In ideal world, FiT account holder should be paying me directly for whatever amount of the solar generated energy I should be keeping.
Or in case FiT account being registered in the utility company 's name they will be able to reconciliate it by crediting money into my electricity account. I can then draw excecc money back in my bank account .

PS.

I have queried about what appeared to me being abandonded solar panels when signed the tenancy agreement and was given by the council no installation paperwork/contract ' lease a roof' or similar who to contact in case of emergency or trouble from solar panels; nobody ever checked their solar system for years of them bublling out solar pounds and during week long stwitch ; utility company never asked for export meter readings and refused to explain how much I export and how much I should get out the export.

I am considering buying the Laing easiform 1959 built wee bungalow; and want to remove the solar panels system to avoid additional complication when applying for a mortage.

Insofar, I only managed to obtain the installer name from MSC certification body - Solarplicity Ltd, con and tax avoidance nailed private company that have multiple entities ; their utility one gone bust last August 2019 under one name and alegedly trading afresh under the different name. Twitter has all the details.

On the positive note, I can completely switch it off and stop paying even little to some pv solar system running electricity costs.
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A typical install here in australia has the solar inverter feeding directly onto the house wiring in the switchboard which is after the meters. This means that you will pull as much power from the inverter as your current load requires and any excess will be pushed back to the network and through the supplier's meter. A typical supplier's meter here will only show you what you have imported and what you have exported. To know what your house is actually using from your solar panels usually requires a smart meter from the solar manufacturer installed in the middle which has a data cable running back to the inverter and between the inverter and the smart meter the two devices can work out where your power usage is actually coming from. i.e. Mains, Panels or batteries depending on your situation.

So in brief summary to your actual post question...yes, your house consumes solar produced electricity that does not reach the supplier's meter.

Hello there

tempting to say 'bitch' as our australian neighbour used to put on their cards posted from Australia.

Trying to word my Qs sensibly to ask if inverters used in the sunny continent have storage capacity to ensure steady AC supply during sunny hours ? Or you guys use low voltage of DC wired camping style appliances that are running directly from the inverter poured energy. Hope i explained it technically correct for a lay person thinking illogically intimes but very tangibly whenever possible. Happy to call my question hetorical if needs be.

 

[BradleyP]

Hello,
sorry for asking a daft question. I have similar problem of not being credited from solar panels generated energy . I know exactly that my monthly usage is 100-120 Kwh from previous house.
I read your in depth post and following your logic I have used today during 7 hours in the daytime whooping 50% of solar 11,6 Kwh as recorded by Aurora inverter; and on top of it imported 3Kwh ; then magicaly exported between 10:51 and 21:10 whooping 9.2 Kw - difference of the export meter readings 17654.3-17645.1. Inverter shows etotal as 17458Kwh

Last Sunday I had solar system switched off and imported same 3Kwh during similar daytime routine ( I am autistic AS/combined adult ADHD).

One bed, one person , no TV , music players etc; kettle boiled once, 3 ip cctvboiled 1, toaster used 3 times, Whirpoll 6sense microwave 35 min crisp option, Tower airfryer 20 mins 200C, Tower electric pressure cooker 20 mins two washing cycles in Samsung. Constant use Kenwood fridge/freeze A ratings on most appliances; lights led/low voltage on when entering the dark area, phone charger, laptop use.

I might loosing something but this doesn't make sense or math . I attach wiring of the solar with export meter and my electric dashboard with grid meter, and meters readings for illustration.

My wild guess is that I export instantly drabs and dribs of DC converted in AC in the grid; and this is lovely confirmed by the inverter's visual display . No way , I would believe that above appliances could run smothly from dribing AC.

But for the purity of my investigation I may delicately contact the above companies' technical support hehe to clarify this highly unlikely possibility.

I use mains electricity from the grid as normal for my needs and running the solar system.

Now this is where meters/wiring blah blah blah magic starts. FiT account is registered not in my name. Therefore net metering out of consideration. In ideal world, FiT account holder should be paying me directly for whatever amount of the solar generated energy I should be keeping.
Or in case FiT account being registered in the utility company 's name they will be able to reconciliate it by crediting money into my electricity account. I can then draw excecc money back in my bank account .

PS.

I have queried about what appeared to me being abandonded solar panels when signed the tenancy agreement and was given by the council no installation paperwork/contract ' lease a roof' or similar who to contact in case of emergency or trouble from solar panels; nobody ever checked their solar system for years of them bublling out solar pounds and during week long stwitch ; utility company never asked for export meter readings and refused to explain how much I export and how much I should get out the export.

I am considering buying the Laing easiform 1959 built wee bungalow; and want to remove the solar panels system to avoid additional complication when applying for a mortage.

Insofar, I only managed to obtain the installer name from MSC certification body - Solarplicity Ltd, con and tax avoidance nailed private company that have multiple entities ; their utility one gone bust last August 2019 under one name and alegedly trading afresh under the different name. Twitter has all the details.

On the positive note, I can completely switch it off and stop paying even little to some pv solar system running electricity costs.
[automerge]1592795193[/automerge]

Hello there

tempting to say 'bitch' as our australian neighbour used to put on their cards posted from Australia.

Trying to word my Qs sensibly to ask if inverters used in the sunny continent have storage capacity to ensure steady AC supply during sunny hours ? Or you guys use low voltage of DC wired camping style appliances that are running directly from the inverter poured energy. Hope i explained it technically correct for a lay person thinking illogically intimes but very tangibly whenever possible. Happy to call my question hetorical if needs be.

Hi there,

the inverter has no storage capacity at all and there is no wiring change within the house...standard AC wiring. The inverter simply does what it's name implies, it inverts the DC current from the solar panels into AC current which it then supplies into the main switchboard. The house will then use whatever current is required at that point in time and export any excess to the grid. If there is not enough current coming from the inverter then it will top up it's requirements by simultaneously pulling from the grid. This change of electron flow is seamless as far as your appliances and house are concerned.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[bluenev]

Hi Robertay2000
Does someone come to read your generation meter? If they don't then no one is getting the generation or feed in Tarrifs. Unless they link to the Power one inverter directly. Perhaps you could apply to take the fits. When was it fitted? More recent installs get very little generation cash
I would suggest you try to make the most of the free energy. It will cost quite a bit to take them down. Talk to your potential mortgage people.
We tend to put our washer (2kw heater) or dishwasher(3kW heater) around midday (11:00-14:00) on sunny days to catch the peaks on your Power One graphs. We have an OWL meter but looking out the window works well too and will save £40.
Your 100-120kwh per month is 3-4 per day, which should reduce to 2-3 per day... Not a massive saving but makes us less worried about the household bills.

I suspect most Ozzy's like us have systems like you where the inverter (DC to AC) feeds into the household supply for use by them and the excess goes to the mains.
More recently expensive battery technology is available to soak up the excess for use in evenings or overnight. In OZ their bills will be high with Aircon usage. A large battery would be very helpful.
A battery that might help us costs £5000 but we could only ever save what we spend on electricity, which is £300per year. That's 20 years at £250 saving a year. A lot of our excess goes into our hot water tank or the car if its parked up and needs a charge on a sunny day. Some still escapes.

 

[robertay2000]

Hiya ,
So nice to hear from the sunny continent. Simple answer nobody ever comes to read the meter . It’s a social housing property I moved in with the solar being already in place. I can smell a rat . Once I complete few more data usage monitoring and obtain any possible information of the installation ; FiT scheme ; payments etc I will be in position to shake the Twitter : Taraa #Covid19 .Hello solar energy rip off of the UK social housing and Housing Associations tenants who are not owners of FIT accounts all being done using public ignorance in STEM subjects based technology backed by first free solar government grants; and media then brutally exposing shambles ; and UK blooming st the moment solar industry financial collapse following backdated bills repayments to affected and Alice electricity users and their estates if applicable . Scheme for owners of solar is straight forward. Solar in the grid , FiT pays for the solar using export meter readings or solar estimated capacity plus different payment for what part of export is used by household directly to the solar generator FiT account owner ; import usage recorded by the mains meter and paid to the utility company. No distracting theories that solar dribs and drabs are topped by the mains. To put it in perspective my solar generates TWICE if my actual needs . In my terms it means I only pay daily electric meter standing charge . FiT account holder has money from all exported solar . And this is not a case. I do not received any payments from exported solar . I basically pay my standard usage from the mains . Period. I am changing supplier back to the company who holds this mysterious FiT account and without telling them will switch off solar to stop them cashing in my export . This electric utility brand is now owned by a completely different business entity who highly likely inherited FiT account . Installer company who may owns this account unless council registered it in their name went bust last year . Shambles In a nutshell. I do hope that owner is my Council and I will easily get the backdate
electric bills payments . For the lifetime of the FiT account that in average is 25 years from the installation date that I believe goes back to 2011-2012

Feed-in Tariff (FIT): Tariff Table 1 April 2020

This document sets out the tariff rates for the Feed-in Tariff scheme.

www.ofgem.gov.uk

 

[bluenev]

The idea was to install the equivalent of a nuclear power station's worth of Solar panels across the country without the transmission losses. The generation payment is to pay for the generation equipment, whoever made that investment is entitled to that return. It is actually a green payment as part of everyone's electricity bills. So we all pay for it.

Mine cost let's say £10,000 around 10 years ago. If I paid interest on that amount at 10%, £1000 a year, then I would just paying it off now.

On a sunny day in mid summer, now, you might be generating 24kWh but you cannot use all of it... YOU CAN TRY THOUGH

I suggest trying to make sure you use as much of that as possible. Eg boil the kettle, fill a flask, cook my dinner, heat the hot water tank(solic200 costs £250), wash clothes or dishes, heat the room in winter saving gas on a cold but sunny day.

I would not switch it off as you are benefitting from free energy.

I would seek to own the panels if you can... Land Register might help as per your other recent post.

 

[robertay2000]

I slowly but surely move towards ownership matter by the time I buy out the bungalow.

I do accept my limitations of technical knowledge , Ons laws application fir alternating currents and social reasoning hehe.

Solar export and consumer import are two entirely separate processes .

They are recorded by export and import meters and financed separately.


As you can see on my photo there is no sign of a magic power mixer that blends inverter raised higher voltage for injection in the grid and imported lowers consumer voltage energy .
Therefore no way I can use higher voltage solar for running my appliances even theoretically . Because they are fused to prevent damage in case of using higher voltage power .

Things may be different in countries with different power voltages .


By guts feeling it may be something to do with sine waves and other physical particular that allow two variable voltage flows run simultaneously in one wiring but in the opposite directions .


I need to refresh secondary physic’s knowledge to get ok answer to this magic.


Mr Google sided with me when I asked why inverter generates higher voltage
An Inverter is an electronic device capable of transforming a DC (DC) current into an alternating current (AC) at a given voltage and frequency. ... It is therefore indispensable to use it to power by DC, electrical devices that work in AC.

Ohm's law states that the electrical current (I) flowing in an circuit is proportional to the voltage (V) and inversely proportional to the resistance (R). Therefore, if the voltage is increased, the current will increase provided the resistance of the circuit does not change.

Similar to traditional inverters, smart inverters convert direct current (DC) into alternating current (AC). The key difference is their ability to absorb and output reactive power. This process is also known as reactive powercompensation.2 Jul 2019

Any views and comments much appreciated . Please note being autistic I do not react on personal fluff when I can see practical gain of it hehe

 

[bluenev]

Just be clear... Your inverter creates power at the mains voltage for the whole of your house. If you have 2kW of Solar and you put a 3kW kettle On, the house will draw the extra 1kW from the mains.
No magic box... Just the inverter... A length of copper wire.. The consumer unit. Where your solar along with your kitchen circuit are connected... The other side of the consumer unit is connected to the mains via a big 60 or 100Amp fuse....

When you are using all the 2kW solar you do not have any excess solar energy to export but the kettle needs 3kW, so it takes that from the external mains at the same voltage.


No magic mixing device just 2 supplies to the kettle. If anything the copper wires mix the power from the solar and the mains together.

Honest.