Discuss Don’t get taken for a ride by electrical ‘Rogue Trainers’ urges industry body in the Electrical News - Electricians News area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Want to become a qualified electrician? Look carefully at the training courses on offer to avoid wasting time and money, is the advice in a new campaign from electrical industry body The Electrotechnical Skills Partnership (TESP).

With thousands of searches each year on terms such as ‘electrical courses’ and ‘how to become an electrician’, many people are at risk of taking the wrong training path if they’re not aware of the correct routes they should follow.

Alongside the many training providers who are doing the right thing and offering industry-recognised qualifications, there are unfortunately some training providers – dubbed by TESP as ‘Rogue Trainers’ – who don’t deliver on their promises, presenting a range of courses which look impressive to the untrained eye, but on proper inspection don’t lead to qualified status.

Click to view video

In a short, animated video from TESP, an unsuspecting victim is drawn into a house of horrors by false claims which turn out not to be all they seem.

The advice to those wanting to become an electrician is look carefully at what’s on offer and be aware of red flags like hard sells, payment plans, and qualification packages which aren’t recognised by industry.

Full advice is available at www.roguetrainers.co.uk with top tips for choosing a training provider, along with warning signs to look out for when researching a provider’s claims. Visitors are signposted to TESP’s industry approved Training Routes to read more on the right paths to follow to become qualified.

“There are still too many reports of people spending thousands of pounds with companies who wilfully misrepresent where their training leads,” said Ruth Devine, TESP Chair and Managing Director of SJD Electrical. “Some providers use high-pressure sales techniques to trap learners with a large financial commitment, but devious contract terms mean there’s no realistic prospect of achieving the qualification.”

“When so many training providers jump through hoops to do things properly and engage responsibly with industry and employers, it’s important that potential learners are aware of the pitfalls.

“We hope to raise awareness of this campaign to the general public and help those who may fall foul of rogue trainers when looking to become an electrician.”

Watch the video and find out more about the campaign.

Click to view video
 
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CamoElectric

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"Importantly, the routes clearly stress that becoming a fully qualified electrician can only be achieved with valid on-site work experience, as opposed to courses that offer no ‘real world’ practical skills."

There is no standard, body, qualification or overseeing authority that defines 'fully qualified'. In short, there's no such thing.
 
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The closest thing to 'qualified' in todays market is an up to date NVQ3 ?

But as you say the term 'qualified' in the electrical industry means nothing as it there is no formal one size fits all qualification

Its not like a driving test where you pass and then are qualified to drive , the electrical trade has never ever had such a universal standard
 
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Whilst there is currently no protection of title nor formal licence to practice for the profession, the industry-approved qualification routes on the Electrical Careers website from TESP (Electrical Training - Qualified Electrical Training Courses - https://www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/) show that whilst there is no one size fits all, there is a clear industry standard across all four UK nations.

The message from TESP on behalf of industry employers is that a vocational qualification including technical knowledge and work-based experience at Level 3, and the AM2 industry assessment of competence is required to be recognised as a qualified electrician. This can be achieved via a variety of aligned routes, be it the ideal route of the apprenticeship, a mixture of further education training and work experience - whether funded by Government or the learner, or via accreditation of experience through the Experienced Worker Assessment.

The routes to qualification are agreed in partnership with industry bodies, employers and providers. The routes are widely recognised across by Government and across different client sectors, and are intended to help learners avoid wasting their money on time on training that doesn’t get them to where they want to be.

The Electrotechnical Assessment Specification, which sets the requirements to join (admittedly non-mandatory) certification body schemes, aligns with the routes for work category A1.2 Other than dwellings covered by BS 7671 (as amended). The accepted qualifications are detailed in the accompanying EAS Qualifications Guide.

The ECS Gold Card eligibility requirements also align with the TESP routes.
 
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CamoElectric

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Whilst there is currently no protection of title nor formal licence to practice for the profession, the industry-approved qualification routes on the Electrical Careers website from TESP (Electrical Training - Qualified Electrical Training Courses - https://www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/) show that whilst there is no one size fits all, there is a clear industry standard across all four UK nations.
No they really don't - you're just an awarding body with no authority in law. No different to NICEIC. Until there are laws governing competence like with GasSafe there is no standard. This is just a fact no matter how many organisations step up and say they are setting the standards. If you don't have to adhere to them then there is no standard, and there certainly is no such thing as 'fully qualified electrician' - the law says 'competence' is all that counts.

I wouldn't have said anything but i don't like organisations saying things that are patently untrue in order to sell themselves.
The message from TESP on behalf of industry employers is that a vocational qualification including technical knowledge and work-based experience at Level 3, and the AM2 industry assessment of competence is required to be recognised as a qualified electrician.
Recognised by who? One group of people taking it upon themselves to try to define 'fully qualified' means nothing when there is no actual standards defining it in law.
The routes to qualification are agreed in partnership with industry bodies, employers and providers. The routes are widely recognised across by Government and across different client sectors, and are intended to help learners avoid wasting their money on time on training that doesn’t get them to where they want to be.
You can trade as an electrician with no qualifications at all. Competence is what 'qualifies' you to be an electrician in law. It's a shame that you've simply tried to justify the wrong statements you made instead of just admitting that you worded it wrongly.

The simple fact is there is no such thing as 'fully qualified electrician' and there is no standard setters or authority no matter how many of you governing bodies try to take it upon yourselves to become the authority. Until people have no choice but to follow your standards then all you are is a glorified NICEIC membership scheme with no authority to say what 'qualified' is and isn't.
 
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Lister1987

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I'm confused, which part are you taking umbrage to @CamoElectric ? The fact they're trying to demystify the "accepted" routes or that they aren't a statutory body with any form of control? I've not seen evidence of the latter, thry have said throughout thry work with various organisations (none of which at statutory) to try and give clear guidance to those wanting to get into the trade.

I agree with some of your points above but I would t shoot them down for what they are doing as upto now, no-one has tried to clearly define a path.

It doesn't help that the terminology throughout is a mix of 'qualified' and 'competent', the former is only 1 way to prove that latter and I would strongly urge TESP and thr wider industry to adopt not 'qualified' but 'competent' as the important factor - EAWR and other associated legislation doesn't use 'Qualified' so why is everyone else? Money I suspect; You need this qual, this qual and this qual.

I'm not opposed to the NVQ3 & AM2 as they help demonstrate the skills required but that whole mindset that you're not qualified competent without them needs to disappear - If you work with the organisations as you say you do, how about this as thr next meaningful change to the industry?

You could definitely improve what you do but I do applaude what you have done thus far.
 
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Camo – it’s clear you have differing views to us, so we will have to agree to disagree. However you have made some inaccurate statements about TESP which we must correct.

TESP is not an awarding body, a membership body, or certification body. We are a not-for-profit organisation that does not sell products or membership.

Our aim with the Rogue Trainers campaign is to raise awareness of those training providers who are looking to take advantage of the unsuspecting public, following reports of concerning practice.

We understand if you do not want to be part of this, but we are grateful for those who do and are really pleased with the level of support the campaign has received so far.

Have a good day!
 
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I'm confused, which part are you taking umbrage to @CamoElectric ?
Statements like this that are factually false but get bandied about:

"becoming a fully qualified electrician can only be achieved with valid on-site work experience".

There's no such thing as 'fully qualified', it literally doesn't exist because the profession is unregulated in this country, standing alone in Europe in this regard along with Netherlands. Go ask any European country if your skills are accepted and they will tell you you will be instantly accepted with any top qualification unless from the UK or Holland.

I get a bit tired of seeing people saying things like this, people saying things like 'you have to be fully qualified to rewire a light because it's ILLEGAL IF YOU DON'T', 'you can't sell your house unless the electrics are carried out by a fully qualified electrician' and other such things that are total nonsense.

I'm on the same side as you - i want heavy regulation but different bodies popping up to claim authority means nothing. Until something is written into law like Gas Safe there is no such thing as 'fully qualified', there are electricians that have qualifications XYZ, there are those with none but more experience who do a better job, those who have passed the 18th + inspection and testing and nothing else, those who have done design and EV, it's a whole mixed bag and there's no official definition of which of these you must have to be considered 'fully qualified'.
 
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The closest thing that England has to a 'qualified' electricians is an up to date NVQ3 ??

no such thing as 'fully qualified' as far as I am concerned
 
Lister1987

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@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.
 
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As the (unpaid) employer Chair of TESP, working with industry bodies, Government, fellow employers and providers to try and make things easier, less confusing and ideally safer... I accept the term 'fully-qualified' can be viewed as controversial when there is no statutory regulation in the UK.

It's used to resonate with the vast numbers of people that aim to become an electrician, usually by collecting qualifications that mean something to someone. Unfortunately not all combinations of qualifications lead to something that is recognised by many people that employ electricians, or procure, specify or assess electrical work. The Level 3 NVQ or apprenticeship including the end point assessment is generally the standard / benchmark (insert whatever word you wish to use) for those who set criteria. But not all do.

Yes, you can call yourself an electrician if you want when all you've ever done is replace a lamp, or absolutely nothing of any worth at all. And there are many excellent, knowledgeable electricians out there who are not 'fully qualified'. Indeed I've come across defacto electrical engineers who would meet professional recognition criteria.

However, is that the message young people and career changers should have? Or should they be guided towards achieved a time-served, work-based vocational route with clearly specified technical knowledge and a rigorous end test? Should they be steered away from bundles of courses with limited technical knowledge, little practical work and no on-site experience, costing thousands? Why are they being sold inspection and testing and pat testing qualifications, rather than electrical theory, as a way to enter the industry?

Perhaps this will change in future with the Building Safety Bill making its passage through parliament, with the planned introduction of the Building Safety Regulator within HSE and establishment of sector competency frameworks in line with BS Flex 8760. Until then industry continues to organise and regulate itself on a voluntary basis. Which as we all know is by no means a perfect situation.

For any competent, practicing individuals that aren't deemed 'fully-qualified' and for whatever reason this becomes a problem for them and a qualification is required, TESP has developed the Ofqual-approved Experienced Worker Assessment, aligned to the Level 3 apprenticeship. This has full guidance for candidates and providers plus a defined Skills Scan template, to try and prevent unnecessary training being sold, but protecting confidence in the 'standard'.

It's really not an easy industry to understand or navigate, TESP activity is intended to help.

@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.

Qualifications don't equal competence, but they can be a good foundation to measure the receipt of standardised training and assessment in a safety-critical role. Competence has to be maintained and can be affected by motivation and other external factors. It's very difficult to measure, hence the development of the AM2 decades ago (well before my time).

I can't say I've encountered an establishment view that qualifications are superior to competence, it's just competence is such a trickly and variable subject. Industry has been grappling with how to define CPD requirements and re validation of competence for many years, and I suspect for a few more years to come given the diversity of individuals working in the industry, and the diversity of the work itself.

Answers on a postcard please! You might find this interesting if you're so inclined...

Built Environmental core Criteria for Building Safety in Competence Frameworks Code of Practice

BSI Flex 8670 has been created in response to findings from the Hackitt review. This review highlighted a fragmented approach to – and a lack of consistency in – the processes and standards for assuring the competence of those working on buildings as a major flaw in the current regulatory system. Accordingly, BSI Flex 8670 will provide a set of core principles of competence, including leading and managing safety, communicating safety, delivering safety, risk management, regulations and processes, building systems, ethics, and fire/life safety.

BSI Flex is a new dynamic and iterative standardization approach. Accordingly, this standard is the result of work undertaken virtually by a team of industry stakeholders to agree on content to release to the marketplace quickly.

This method permits a rapid response to industry changes and can result in the publication of several versions a year.

However, the BSI Flex development process has now come to its conclusion and BSI Flex 8670 will begin transitioning into BS 8670 in 2022. BSI will make BSI Flex 8670 available until BS 8670 is published unless we receive authoritative advice to withdraw it. We ask that the industry keep using BSI Flex 8670 until it is either superseded or withdrawn.

Offered as a free-to-use resource, BSI Flex 8670 is intended to inform the development of future competence frameworks (or be used to map against existing frameworks) in the built environment sector.
 
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@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.
'ere 'ere.
 
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As the (unpaid) employer Chair of TESP, working with industry bodies, Government, fellow employers and providers to try and make things easier, less confusing and ideally safer... I accept the term 'fully-qualified' can be viewed as controversial when there is no statutory regulation in the UK.

It's used to resonate with the vast numbers of people that aim to become an electrician, usually by collecting qualifications that mean something to someone. Unfortunately not all combinations of qualifications lead to something that is recognised by many people that employ electricians, or procure, specify or assess electrical work. The Level 3 NVQ or apprenticeship including the end point assessment is generally the standard / benchmark (insert whatever word you wish to use) for those who set criteria. But not all do.

Yes, you can call yourself an electrician if you want when all you've ever done is replace a lamp, or absolutely nothing of any worth at all. And there are many excellent, knowledgeable electricians out there who are not 'fully qualified'. Indeed I've come across defacto electrical engineers who would meet professional recognition criteria.

However, is that the message young people and career changers should have? Or should they be guided towards achieved a time-served, work-based vocational route with clearly specified technical knowledge and a rigorous end test? Should they be steered away from bundles of courses with limited technical knowledge, little practical work and no on-site experience, costing thousands? Why are they being sold inspection and testing and pat testing qualifications, rather than electrical theory, as a way to enter the industry?

Perhaps this will change in future with the Building Safety Bill making its passage through parliament, with the planned introduction of the Building Safety Regulator within HSE and establishment of sector competency frameworks in line with BS Flex 8760. Until then industry continues to organise and regulate itself on a voluntary basis. Which as we all know is by no means a perfect situation.

For any competent, practicing individuals that aren't deemed 'fully-qualified' and for whatever reason this becomes a problem for them and a qualification is required, TESP has developed the Ofqual-approved Experienced Worker Assessment, aligned to the Level 3 apprenticeship. This has full guidance for candidates and providers plus a defined Skills Scan template, to try and prevent unnecessary training being sold, but protecting confidence in the 'standard'.

It's really not an easy industry to understand or navigate, TESP activity is intended to help.



Qualifications don't equal competence, but they can be a good foundation to measure the receipt of standardised training and assessment in a safety-critical role. Competence has to be maintained and can be affected by motivation and other external factors. It's very difficult to measure, hence the development of the AM2 decades ago (well before my time).

I can't say I've encountered an establishment view that qualifications are superior to competence, it's just competence is such a trickly and variable subject. Industry has been grappling with how to define CPD requirements and re validation of competence for many years, and I suspect for a few more years to come given the diversity of individuals working in the industry, and the diversity of the work itself.

Answers on a postcard please! You might find this interesting if you're so inclined...

Built Environmental core Criteria for Building Safety in Competence Frameworks Code of Practice
Interesting.

I hope you succeed in getting a grip on this - the industry in this country is a mess.

It should just be cut and dry - you have to do an apprenticeship or equivalent to touch electrics of any kind. Only once your NVQ and end point assessment are complete can you do this. If you missed the boat for an apprenticeship there should be recognised routes for adults into the industry. Do that and short course providers cease to be needed, but they are at the moment often the only way into the industry for working adults.

Where i am for example there are no evening courses so i would either have to go full time at college or pay for a short course.

Making the grants/funding the exact same for those of any age would allow people to take on adults and drive out the need for a lot of short courses.

At the end of the day it's not the training that's the problem, it's the lack of being able to break into the industry in any other way that drives people towards these places.

We need a body to be appointed by government that oversees everything and defines fully qualified as Technical Qualification to Level 3 + NVQ Portfolio + End Point Assessment + 18th Ed + Inspection and Testing. Can't touch electric of any kind without supervision unless you've got all that. Once you do have that, you should have the authority to install, inspect, test, certify and design circuits without having to pay more money to building control/scheme scams every year.

That imo is what is needed.

Until then there is no 'fully qualified', there are no standards outside of 'competent' and this industry remains the wild west.

If you think about it, you're using terms like 'fully qualified' in an industry where a 'fully qualified' electrician isn't allowed to say work is safe unless he pays some awarding body several hundred quid a year. Doesn't that seem silly? All of a sudden 'fully qualified' by your definition doesn't seem to be worth much.
 
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The closest thing to 'qualified' in todays market is an up to date NVQ3 ?

But as you say the term 'qualified' in the electrical industry means nothing as it there is no formal one size fits all qualification

Its not like a driving test where you pass and then are qualified to drive , the electrical trade has never ever had such a universal standard
And therein lies the problem with todays boil in the bag Electrician courses, and those poor souls that take and pass these courses and are allowed to be classed as Electricians IMO FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.
View attachment 90993

Want to become a qualified electrician? Look carefully at the training courses on offer to avoid wasting time and money, is the advice in a new campaign from electrical industry body The Electrotechnical Skills Partnership (TESP).

With thousands of searches each year on terms such as ‘electrical courses’ and ‘how to become an electrician’, many people are at risk of taking the wrong training path if they’re not aware of the correct routes they should follow.

Alongside the many training providers who are doing the right thing and offering industry-recognised qualifications, there are unfortunately some training providers – dubbed by TESP as ‘Rogue Trainers’ – who don’t deliver on their promises, presenting a range of courses which look impressive to the untrained eye, but on proper inspection don’t lead to qualified status.

Click to view video

In a short, animated video from TESP, an unsuspecting victim is drawn into a house of horrors by false claims which turn out not to be all they seem.

The advice to those wanting to become an electrician is look carefully at what’s on offer and be aware of red flags like hard sells, payment plans, and qualification packages which aren’t recognised by industry.

Full advice is available at www.roguetrainers.co.uk with top tips for choosing a training provider, along with warning signs to look out for when researching a provider’s claims. Visitors are signposted to TESP’s industry approved Training Routes to read more on the right paths to follow to become qualified.

“There are still too many reports of people spending thousands of pounds with companies who wilfully misrepresent where their training leads,” said Ruth Devine, TESP Chair and Managing Director of SJD Electrical. “Some providers use high-pressure sales techniques to trap learners with a large financial commitment, but devious contract terms mean there’s no realistic prospect of achieving the qualification.”

“When so many training providers jump through hoops to do things properly and engage responsibly with industry and employers, it’s important that potential learners are aware of the pitfalls.

“We hope to raise awareness of this campaign to the general public and help those who may fall foul of rogue trainers when looking to become an electrician.”

Watch the video and find out more about the campaign.

Click to view video
Far to many of these money grabbin shysters about these days IMO
 
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Say what you want....Qualified or competent but in my eyes you have to be qualified to be properly competent.........and competent to be properly qualified.
But that's the problem, you can't be 'qualified' because there's no such thing.
 
Pretty Mouth

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But that's the problem, you can't be 'qualified' because there's no such thing.
Sure you can be qualified. Anyone with any electrical qualification meets the dictionary definition. But totally agree with you regarding 'fully qualified', there is no such thing.
 
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Sure you can be qualified. Anyone with any electrical qualification meets the dictionary definition. But totally agree with you regarding 'fully qualified', there is no such thing.
Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.

I cut my teeth in Europe and their rules are far superior, they're properly regulated and even their standards are better.

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.
 
Pretty Mouth

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Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.

I cut my teeth in Europe and their rules are far superior, they're properly regulated and even their standards are better.

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.
Yeah, I see your point. With no legal obligation to hold any qualification to do electrical work, the only qualifications that count are the ones your employers or clients want to see. As I'm self employed, that generally means 'none'.

I took the short course route into the industry, but largely consider myself self-taught. I don't have a huge amount of faith in formal training/education (I find you mostly end up teaching yourself with the aid of books anyway), but I wanted some sort of qualification so I could say I was 'qualified' if anyone asked. Only once have I been asked if I'm 'fully qualified', to which I said I'm qualified for the range of work I do (which is true, but then so is anyone).
 
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Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.
You're right there...but it's been the same and just getting worse for goodness knows how long. All those top 'greats' of our industry (and government) just doing there best to ferk up everything that's gone before them with a fast forward button....making it so easy to become an electrician yet so difficult to become an experienced and competent one.
Not just our lot, of course, but we're a hell of a good example.
 
Mike Johnson

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Except in France you do not have to be qualified to work on your own domestic installation, no such thing a Part P or notifying your LBC.
 
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Except in France you do not have to be qualified to work on your own domestic installation, no such thing a Part P or notifying your LBC.

And the point here is there is an actual definition of what constitutes 'fully qualified' and it's called 'technicien', one step above 'electricien' which is their equivalent to domestic installer. It's a regulated profession in France, it isn't here which is why our quals aren't readily accepted in Europe.
 
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But means nothing in domestic work if the main is already connected, the only time an installation is checked is in a house sale and then not by anyone qualified or Consuel.
 
Vortigern

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Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury (EAWR)

16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.
So far as I know this is the only statutory requirement in doing electrical work. While an industrial installation worker and domestic worker my have the same qualifications, there is no way either could do the others work. Regs talk of "skilled persons" another layer of definition.
So statutorily: Technical knowledge, from qualifications? Experience; on the job? But the whole point of being competent, the aim, is to PREVENT DANGER AND INJURY. So work carried out must be done to regs to obviate injury and danger. Which in some ways is common sense. I think it is easily forgotten that an electricians work is not that difficult. From a qualification viewpoint it is really just basic science nothing rocket science about it. The techniques employed by a skilled experienced person are not that difficult once learnt. I do think sometimes some get a bit up themselves in presenting being an electrician as an insoluble maze of technical difficulty whereas it is very mundane and simple. Present company excepted of course.
 
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Vortigern

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134.2.1 During erection and on completion of an installation or an addition or alteration to an installation,
and before it is put into service, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons competent
to verify that the requirements of this Standard have been met.
Under definitions;
Skilled person (electrically). Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be
undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards
which electricity can create
Just to further define what an electrician should be by statute and regs. HSE provide further info on competent as defined in EAWR. But this is all rather common sense. Competent is mentioned a number of times especially around I&T having to be competent to do I&T.
 
Vortigern

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UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.
Ok now thats fighting talk! I think you're statements below are open to debate.
There is no standard, body, qualification or overseeing authority that defines 'fully qualified'. In short, there's no such thing.

there is no standard setters

I think you will find in the link a tad of standards which govern entry and competence within the electrical trades. CPS are not just there to say your work is ok but also to assess entrants to ensure they have the competencies and qualifications to safely work. You can see gov.uk has devolved the responsibility for overseeing competency to these schemes. I will be the first to admit that there are flaws. However are you really saying there are no imcompetent electricians in europe? That you will only find them here in England or Holland? Arguing about "fully qualified" is tilting at windmills imho. It is purely semantics. Yes it could be stated in a better way, but does not really cut to the core of what a competent person is by changing a few words. It would seem you may have much to contribute to TESP. I think a lot of people on here are highly skilled persons and competent and would have much to contribute here and abroad. Some of your statements suggest this may not be so by implication. I object to that. While I take some of what you say on board as having merit there are parts that skate close to insult which I have always been taught, is it kind, is it true, is it necessary, if not, do not say it. You might usefully reflect on that.
 
Lister1987

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Say what you want....Qualified or competent but in my eyes you have to be qualified to be properly competent.........and competent to be properly qualified.
Its the whole 'lesser' and 'fewer' argument all over again. They simply aren't interchangable.
 

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