Dual socket not working.

[padd1e]

Good Afternoon all,

was after a bit of advice. I have a dual wall socket that doesn't seem to work. It was originally used to power a kettle and toaster but has stopped working over the last week or so. I have tried the kettle and toaster on a different socket and they work fine so have had a friend remove and replace the socket with a new one I bought. Unfortunately the same thing happens. no appliances work in the new socket either. He checked the socket with a screwdriver with a light in it and said the power is coming through but he is unsure why it isn't powering any appliances. he advised to get an electrician in but I have been online trying to find out what it might be. sorry if I haven't explained this really well as I am in no way electrically trained and would struggle to wire a plug.

kind regards in advance
any help or advice greatly appreciated.

 

[radiohead]

A neon screwdriver is not an adequate means of verifying the presence of voltage, it misleads and can result in potentially dangerous conclusions being reached, tell your friend to bin it. It is impossible to diagnose your problem without proper testing (assuming the socket has been correctly replaced). The only thing I can suggest is that sometimes sockets are fed from a 13a fused connection unit, check for one of those in the vicinity, and check your consumer unit for a fuse or circuit breaker blown or off. Another possibility is the socket is switched by a panel of isolation switches or some other local isolator. Check carefully for the obvious, otherwise it's likely you will need an electrician. BTW how did your friend isolate and make safe prior to replacing the socket?

 

[padd1e]

A neon screwdriver is not an adequate means of verifying the presence of voltage, it misleads and can result in potentially dangerous conclusions being reached, tell your friend to bin it. It is impossible to diagnose your problem without proper testing (assuming the socket has been correctly replaced). The only thing I can suggest is that sometimes sockets are fed from a 13a fused connection unit, check for one of those in the vicinity, and check your consumer unit for a fuse or circuit breaker blown or off. Another possibility is the socket is switched by a panel of isolation switches or some other local isolator. Check carefully for the obvious, otherwise it's likely you will need an electrician. BTW how did your friend isolate and make safe prior to replacing the socket?

thank you for the reply, I switch off the trip switch for the circuit, its a socket in the kitchen and I double checked after switching off the trip switch by trying all the other kitchen sockets and none of them worked.

after switching the trip switch back on all the other sockets in the kitchen work but not the one with the problem even with the new socket. the wires at the back look fine not blackened or anything as does the original socket which we removed.

 

[westward10]

How many cables were in the socket, sounds like is could be on a radial/spur and there is a lose termination elsewhere.

 

[Andy-1960]

Where in the midlands are you? Maybe a member could pop in and have a look.

 

[padd1e]

How many cables were in the socket, sounds like is could be on a radial/spur and there is a lose termination elsewhere.

there were 3 wires behind the socket, an earth neutral and live my friend said.
[automerge]1587224714[/automerge]

Where in the midlands are you? Maybe a member could pop in and have a look.

Birmingham very close to the commonwealth games site

 

[westward10]

So one red a black and an earth.

 

[Baddegg]

Sounds like it’s a spur from somewhere else, loose neutral at that point possibly, have you had any trouble or replaced any other sockets recently?
[automerge]1587225098[/automerge]

So one red a black and an earth.

Or maybe blue and brown and earth ?

 

[padd1e]

Sounds like it’s a spur from somewhere else, loose neutral at that point possibly, have you had any trouble or replaced any other sockets recently?
[automerge]1587225098[/automerge]

Or maybe blue and brown and earth ?

I didn't see the colours but did notice that there were 3 wires.
[automerge]1587225423[/automerge]

Sounds like it’s a spur from somewhere else, loose neutral at that point possibly, have you had any trouble or replaced any other sockets recently?
[automerge]1587225098[/automerge]

Or maybe blue and brown and earth ?

no works been carried out recently, it is in an extension which was completed about 12 years ago.

 

[littlespark]

What we’re suggesting is that this double socket has be spurred from another.
Behind another socket, possibly close by, you will find 3 sets of cables.
Sockets are generally wired in a ring, so you have one in, one out and back to the fuse or circuit breaker.
A spur is when a third cable comes from a socket to supply one other point.
It certainly sounds as this is what you have here.

The live appears to be connected, according to the neon screwdriver, but the neutral could be loose

 

[Baddegg]

There’s obviously a fault somewhere, have you had any trouble with rcd/mcb tripping?.....it’ll be pretty hard to diagnose here though, I wouldn’t recommend your friend testing any further with his neon screwdriver either and don’t assume just because you’ve turned the relevant breaker off the circuit is dead especially if there is only one cable at that socket it could be spurred from anywhere, your friend has given you the best advice I’m afraid you will need an electrician..... lucky for you there’s one or two on here, there’s bound to be someone close who can help,

 

[padd1e]

thanks for all the help guys much appreciated, will try and get an electrician in on Monday.

hope you all stay safe and sane during these strange times.

 

[Baddegg]

thanks for all the help guys much appreciated, will try and get an electrician in on Monday.

hope you all stay safe and sane during these strange times.

Good call it shouldn’t take a decent spark long to diagnose...
Edit....and let us know if ya can what the issue was, we like that ?

 

[Ray Pooley]

if there is a L-E short, you'll not detect current in the earth. you'll detect s bang.

Explain to me why a stray current wouldn't travel through a copper wire because it has green and yellow insulation around it.

 

[telectrix]

how can it be a stray current with a short circuit. it would be fault current which could be in the hundreds ao amps for a split second before the OCPD activated.

 

[Ray Pooley]

how can it be a stray current with a short circuit. it would be fault current which could be in the hundreds ao amps for a split second before the OCPD activated.

That's not what I asked. Please explain why current doesn't travel down earth wires. You and the other chap are mocking the very concept. Right? So set me straight. So I understand.

 

[radiohead]

That's not what I asked. Please explain why current doesn't travel down earth wires. You and the other chap are mocking the very concept. Right? So set me straight. So I understand.

The OP concerns a socket not working. A short circuit refers to a fault of negligible impedance between live conductors or live conductors and earth. If there was such a fault to an earth wire of course a current would flow, but that current would normally be of sufficient magnitude to operate the protective device, disconnecting the supply, which would be apparent due to a tripped device. That is how a circuit is designed. Some appliances operate with a normal tiny leakage of current to earth, however this would not account for an inoperative socket so is a moot point with regards to the issue that needs to be resolved. From your post which has been deleted along with my reply it was apparent that you are confusing voltage and current, and that your advice on testing for those was seriously flawed and potentially dangerous. I hope the above helps, but please post any questions and I will try and answer without appearing to be 'mocking'

 

[Baddegg]

Have I missed some posts here?

 

[Ray Pooley]

The OP concerns a socket not working. A short circuit refers to a fault of negligible impedance between live conductors or live conductors and earth. If there was such a fault to an earth wire of course a current would flow, but that current would normally be of sufficient magnitude to operate the protective device, disconnecting the supply, which would be apparent due to a tripped device. That is how a circuit is designed. Some appliances operate with a normal tiny leakage of current to earth, however this would not account for an inoperative socket so is a moot point with regards to the issue that needs to be resolved. From your post which has been deleted along with my reply it was apparent that you are confusing voltage and current, and that your advice on testing for those was seriously flawed and potentially dangerous. I hope the above helps, but please post any questions and I will try and answer without appearing to be 'mocking'

"If there was such a fault to an earth wire of course a current would flow ... "

Thank you. That's all I want to read from you. And if that situation occurs the current would be detectable on the earth wire using an AC clamp meter as I proposed. A proposal which, it appears, was sufficently aggregious in your opinion for you to mock me and remove my comment altogether. As for teh "return to MCB" mistake all that would require is a nudge and I would have realised my error, acknowledged it and corrected it. There is certainly no justification to post a comment that my comment on here will lead to people being killed.

Here's a situation.

2.5kW grill that was melting sockets and plugs. Metal grill case. The element was new out of the box. But it turned out to be faulty. The heating core was shorting to the outer sheath of the element which was bolted to the metal casing. The current on the live wire was 18 amps. The current on the neutral wire was 14 amps and the current on the earth wire was 4 amps. Measured using an AC clamp meter. There was no RCD to detect the short. Not enough overload to trip the MCB. But enought to melt the 13 amp socket, the plug and the internal terminal block of the grill over a period of two days. A dangerous situation.

 

[telectrix]

Have I missed some posts here?

bit like david beckham taking a penalty.