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Dartlec

Esteemed
Arms
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I agree with all of that, and I’ll caveat the entire thing by saying I’m basically playing devils advocate because I’m stuck in isolation thanks to this wonderful pandemic.

Ultimately I see no reason the electrician wouldn’t issue an EICR as well as an EIC if requested to. I guess I’m just arguing at the stupidity of the following situation which is what the rules are effectively mandating

EICR carried out, unsatisfactory with all issues able to be resolved by board change.

Board change carried out, EIC issued which has to inspect and test every point to meet the requirements of GN3/BS7671.

EICR has to also be issued to confirm the EIC for the board change has resolved the original unsatisfactory EICR.

Having nothing better to do I’ve sat and compared the schedules of inspection for the EIC and EICR from GN3. They’re laid out differently, and the EICR drills down a lot more to individual levels, but the gist of the content for both of them is the same in a shorter format on the EIC.

Instead of drilling down 8 separate items for inspection in a Location containing a bath or shower, the EIC has a catch all single sentence.

View attachment 61778View attachment 61779
No problem, I enjoy a good discussion and never assume I'm 100% right on anything. :)

As I understand the legislation, it's not actually necessary to get the EICR reissued as satisfactory. The original EICR + the EIC that confirms the remedial work was done is sufficient as a whole to prove compliance. In fact, a single piece of paper from the landlord that says "all remedial works done k thx bye" is technically all that is called for.

Of course, that is going to cause problems with letting agents too, as they will just have a tick box for EICR - so in most cases it leaves the landlord in a tricky situation trying to get the EICR reissued.
 
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dodger421

-
Supporter
I agree with all of that, and I’ll caveat the entire thing by saying I’m basically playing devils advocate because I’m stuck in isolation thanks to this wonderful pandemic.

Ultimately I see no reason the electrician wouldn’t issue an EICR as well as an EIC if requested to. I guess I’m just arguing at the stupidity of the following situation which is what the rules are effectively mandating

EICR carried out, unsatisfactory with all issues able to be resolved by board change.

Board change carried out, EIC issued which has to inspect and test every point to meet the requirements of GN3/BS7671.

EICR has to also be issued to confirm the EIC for the board change has resolved the original unsatisfactory EICR.

Having nothing better to do I’ve sat and compared the schedules of inspection for the EIC and EICR from GN3. They’re laid out differently, and the EICR drills down a lot more to individual levels, but the gist of the content for both of them is the same in a shorter format on the EIC.

Instead of drilling down 8 separate items for inspection in a Location containing a bath or shower, the EIC has a catch all single sentence.

View attachment 61778View attachment 61779
Don't have GN3 to hand, but I'd imagine there will always be grey areas where signing for a carefully written "extent of installation" is not automatically the same as signing an EICR. The immediate example would be a pendant in Zone 2 - I wouldn't refuse to change the board because of it, though the client would be informed of it and encouraged to upgrade. That's different from a C2 on an EICR which requires remedial work within 28 days (under the legislation).

Then the letting agent or landlord would have to know enough to judge whether any particular EIC was to the same standard as an EICR and start to judge whether any issues noted were equivalent to a C2 or a C3, which is never going to be possible.

I’d also point out that you’d have written that as a non-compliance with BS7671. The EIC now states the installation doesn’t comply with BS7671, which is what the landlord legislation requires. I’d like to think that sort of statement could be interpreted by anyone, but I am fully aware that general stupidity reigns in society so maybe not :-D
 

Dartlec

Esteemed
Arms
I’d also point out that you’d have written that as a non-compliance with BS7671. The EIC now states the installation doesn’t comply with BS7671, which is what the landlord legislation requires. I’d like to think that sort of statement could be interpreted by anyone, but I am fully aware that general stupidity reigns in society so maybe not :-D

You've clearly not deal with the same landlords/letting agents as me :)
 

dodger421

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Supporter
If you tick the 'alteration' box and state in the extent that the schedule of inspections applies to the board change only then surely you're not signing that the entire installation complies?
Your board change has affected the entire installation. The relevant inspection and testing requirements of Chapter 64 must therefore apply to the entire installation no?
 

loz2754

-
Arms
Your board change has affected the entire installation. The relevant inspection and testing requirements of Chapter 64 must therefore apply to the entire installation no?
A board change does not affect the entire installation. It affects every circuit fed by that board, but not every accessory connected to those circuits. So all you do is test at the end of each circuit, you would not inspect every accessory.
Also, what if there is more than one board, but I only changed one of them? An EIC would be issued for that one board change, but the rest of the installation would not necessarily have been affected. Whereas an EICR would state in the extent and limitations that I have inspected the entire installation, subject to the usual limitations. All boards, all circuits, all accessories.
That's the difference between an EIC and an EICR. IMHO of course.
 

dodger421

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Supporter
Correct, poor terminology on my part. All circuits fed from that board must be fully inspected and tested to ensure they comply with BS7671. And any sub-boards fed from that board would be included. Additional boards may not be included, but I’d guess that’s unlikely in most private rentals?

If the accessory is connected to a circuit in the CU you’ve changed then it’s affected by the CU change. So you’ll still need to test IR with 2-way switches in both positions for example.

How do you know where the end of a circuit is if you haven’t inspected and tested it though? You need to measure R1+R2 at every point as sampling isn’t allowed in an EIC (and your corresponding tests for an RFC need to be conducted at every point too). Do you do that with a blindfold on so you can say you didn’t inspect anything other than your work at the board?

I think we can all agree when you do a board change you don’t do all of your testing sat in front of the board if you’re doing it properly. And that’s when you’ll see things like non-IP rated lights in Zone 2 and you’ll document those non-compliance’s accordingly.
 
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loz2754

-
Arms
Correct, poor terminology on my part. All circuits fed from that board must be fully inspected and tested to ensure they comply with BS7671. And any sub-boards fed from that board would be included. Additional boards may not be included, but I’d guess that’s unlikely in most private rentals?

If the accessory is connected to a circuit in the CU you’ve changed then it’s affected by the CU change. So you’ll still need to test IR with 2-way switches in both positions for example.

How do you know where the end of a circuit is if you haven’t inspected and tested it though? You need to measure R1+R2 at every point as sampling isn’t allowed in an EIC (and your corresponding tests for an RFC need to be conducted at every point too). Do you do that with a blindfold on so you can say you didn’t inspect anything other than your work at the board?

I think we can all agree when you do a board change you don’t do all of your testing sat in front of the board if you’re doing it properly. And that’s when you’ll see things like non-IP rated lights in Zone 2 and you’ll document those non-compliance’s accordingly.
I agree that any self respecting sparky, and of course everyone on this forum 😇, would not just change a consumer unit and do all the testing only at the consumer unit. And when reconnecting the circuits we would want to be certain that it is safe to do so. And that would include a Zs test at every socket. And a quick visual of all the accessories to check for damage. And the protective conductors are tested, preferably at the furthest point of each circuit. And blah blah blah....

However, this would still not be quite meeting the more thorough, stringent inspection and testing that is provided on an EICR.

I appreciate what you're getting at. But from a landlord's perspective, what they're charged with obtaining before they can let out their property, is an EICR. An EIC can only be used as a substitute if it covers a complete rewire, or a new build, to satisfy HM Government.

Just getting a feeling that we're very close to being in agreement, but might perchance never fully close the gap...
 

dodger421

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Supporter
I think you’re right, we basically agree and again I’m only really arguing this because I’ve not got anything better to do right now :-D

I do believe though that the inspection and testing for both an EIC, EICR and MEIWC should be equally as stringent and thorough. If anything an EIC should be more thorough because you’re providing the initial verification of that installations safety (installation being whatever you’ve described it as in the EIC).

It’s been brought up many times but I think the wording of the legislation is quite poor, this is just another example of it IMHO. And as per the OP’s original question, the electrician shouldn’t have any trouble producing an EICR if he’s done the EIC properly, which it sounds like he has. An admin fee may be charged, but certainly no additional work should need carried out.
 
Your board change has affected the entire installation. The relevant inspection and testing requirements of Chapter 64 must therefore apply to the entire installation no?
I agree in respect to the testing, if you do a board change the you would do a full test as though it was a new install and therefore would have a full schedule of test results. But in terms of schedule of inspections, can it not be applied to your board change only?

For example, cables routed in correct zones, you cannot tick for entire installation as you would never know- would you not n/a as it doesn't apply to the board change?

If a bathroom light didn't have a suitable IP rating, again you couldn't tick, would you n/a or would you be responsible for replacing it for a suitable fitting to be able to tick?

I'm still learning everyday so interested in what is the official stance on this (if there is one).
 

loz2754

-
Arms
I agree in respect to the testing, if you do a board change the you would do a full test as though it was a new install and therefore would have a full schedule of test results. But in terms of schedule of inspections, can it not be applied to your board change only?

For example, cables routed in correct zones, you cannot tick for entire installation as you would never know- would you not n/a as it doesn't apply to the board change?

If a bathroom light didn't have a suitable IP rating, again you couldn't tick, would you n/a or would you be responsible for replacing it for a suitable fitting to be able to tick?

I'm still learning everyday so interested in what is the official stance on this (if there is one).
I agree. My EIC usually has a whole bunch of N/As.
 

dodger421

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Supporter
I agree in respect to the testing, if you do a board change the you would do a full test as though it was a new install and therefore would have a full schedule of test results. But in terms of schedule of inspections, can it not be applied to your board change only?

For example, cables routed in correct zones, you cannot tick for entire installation as you would never know- would you not n/a as it doesn't apply to the board change?

If a bathroom light didn't have a suitable IP rating, again you couldn't tick, would you n/a or would you be responsible for replacing it for a suitable fitting to be able to tick?

I'm still learning everyday so interested in what is the official stance on this (if there is one).
The schedule of inspections applies to the relevant parts of the existing installation that are affected by the addition or alteration. That includes all of the final circuits connected to the board.

In the case of the non-IP rated light the final circuit doesn’t comply with BS7671. So, as discussed, you could document that on the EIC in the departures and non-compliances box. Technically I would argue you can’t energise that circuit because you can’t tick the equipment suitable for the zones box in section 10.1. You could N/A it, but again I’d argue that a final circuit you’ve altered doesn’t comply with BS7671, so why is that inspection not applicable?

Cable routing, N/A as you say, as it would be a LIM for an EICR anyway.
 

dodger421

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Supporter
I’m also just going to ask this, again just for arguments sake because I think this is actually an interesting conversation.

@westward10 mentioned in post 13 that he’d issue an EICR based on his recent EIC probably without a site visit provided the property is unoccupied.

A couple of the folks who agree with that have also argued that an EIC and an EICR are two completely separate beasts, and one isn’t a substitute for the other.

So, why would you be happy to produce an EICR from an EIC without further inspection and testing if the EIC isn’t as thorough in the first place?
 

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