EICR- Are Rcd's necessary ?

[Hamez]

Hi all,

I have been asked to carry out repair works in a house which has had a condition report completed by another electrician.

One of the main problems they have outline is that the "entire property is not protected by RCD's - C2"
The D.B is an old wylex board with rewirable fuse's so adding in RCD protection isn't that straight forward.

If the the Installation comply's with the regs at the time of it being installed do I need to add in RCD's?

Many Thanks!

 

[Darkwood]

Welcome to the forum :smart:

 

[Octopus]

Have you got, and read, the relevant Best Practice Guide?

 

[Hamez]

Hi,
I have a read over it and on page 3 it states this

"It should be borne in mind that, as stated in theintroducon to BS 7671, exisng installaons thathave been constructed in accordance with earlieredions of the Standard may not comply with thecurrent edion in every respect, but this does notnecessarily mean that they are unsafe for connueduse or require upgrading. "

Do I then just put in the observations part of the forum " no RCD protection - C3" ?

Thanks

 

[davesparks]

In the model forms section of 7671 you will find a page giving guidance to the person carrying out the report.
If you read that guidance you will find that it guides you on how to code a lack of RCDs

 

[Flanders]

Its a bit of a sweeping statement that the whole property in not protected by an rcd it should be broke down , for example no rcd protection for cables buried less than 50mm in walls code 3 . No rcd protection for circuits within a bath or shower room code 3 , no rcd protection for sockets for general use code 3, and no rcd protection for sockets that could be used to supply portable equipment outside code 2

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no requirement in the current regulations for sockets which could be used to supply portable equipment outdoors to be provided with RCD protection.

 

[Flanders]

There is no requirement in the current regulations for sockets which could be used to supply portable equipment outdoors to be provided with RCD protection.

May not exactly say those words but i would aply reg 411.3.3 (ii) to that statement

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That would only apply if there is unprotected mobile equipment in use connected to a socket.
Even in such a situation, the observation should not refer to the lack of RCD protection for the socket, but rather to the lack of RCD protection for the mobile equipment.

 

[Flanders]

Yes so if you have a ground floor socket next to the back door and the house as a lawn and there is an electric mower in tne garage then i would take a pont that that socket may be used to supply equipment outside , my post was just an example to point out that you can not just put no rcd protection as a one liners on eicr all propertys are different and need coding accordingly

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The socket may well be used for the mower.
However the mower may have an RCD plug, or may be used with a plug in RCD adapter.
The socket (unless it is intended for a specific item of equipment) fails to comply with current Regulations, as it has no RCD protection. To then make a further observation based on the fact that it fails to comply with something that is no longer a requirement of the Regulations, would mean that you are not conducting the inspection, in accordance with the requirements of BS7671.

If it is the case, that at the time of design/construction of the installation, the requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors was in force, then you have an installation which has never complied with the requirements of BS7671.
As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.
This would mean that a code C2 would be applicable for all general use sockets, cables concealed in walls, circuits of locations containing baths or showers, etc.

 

[Risteard]

As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.

There is no requirement that an installation which complied when it was designed & constructed is not deemed unsafe.

An installation which was installed to a previous Edition MAY NOT NECESSARILY be unsafe (ergo, it also may be unsafe). Nowhere in BS 7671 is there a requirement that you consider it to be automatically safe.

Although I do agree that you cannot have an Observation that a socket outlet used to provide equipment outdoors as no such requirement has existed since the 16th Edition was superceded.

 

[sparksburnout]

Hi,
I have a read over it and on page 3 it states this

"It should be borne in mind that, as stated in theintroducon to BS 7671, exisng installaons thathave been constructed in accordance with earlieredions of the Standard may not comply with thecurrent edion in every respect, but this does notnecessarily mean that they are unsafe for connueduse or require upgrading. "

Do I then just put in the observations part of the forum " no RCD protection - C3" ?

Thanks

No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective. You may wish to recommend to the customer that it would be in their benefit to upgrade the fusebox, but the previous C2 in the EICR is incorrect and so would a C3 be.

 

[davesparks]

No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective. You may wish to recommend to the customer that it would be in their benefit to upgrade the fusebox, but the previous C2 in the EICR is incorrect and so would a C3 be.

How can a C3 be incorrect when it is written in bs7671 that a minimum of C3 should be given?

 

[sparksburnout]

How can a C3 be incorrect when it is written in bs7671 that a minimum of C3 should be given?

Fair point, so if it was a socket liable to supply outdoor equipment, would you give it a C2? How would you define that?

 

[davesparks]

Fair point, so if it was a socket liable to supply outdoor equipment, would you give it a C2? How would you define that?

In typical IET fashion it was a bit more specific in the green book, but now they have made it less clear in this book! It used to state that bathrooms without supplementary bonding or RCDs are a C2 and that sockets externally or to be used externally are also C2 (if memory serves correctly)
All other sockets requiring RCD but not provided with it were C3.

 

[sparksburnout]

In typical IET fashion it was a bit more specific in the green book, but now they have made it less clear in this book! It used to state that bathrooms without supplementary bonding or RCDs are a C2 and that sockets externally or to be used externally are also C2 (if memory serves correctly)
All other sockets requiring RCD but not provided with it were C3.

Bit open to interpretation this "likely to be used externally"! Could be any socket downstairs near a window......

 

[Risteard]

No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective.

Aside from the fact that any lack of RCD protection must at a minimum be given a C3 observation, it is not true that something which complied at the time of installation cannot have an observation. It must be if safety is a concern - the old Regulations are not relevant to the inspection being carried out to the current Edition.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

It is clearly a safety concern if a socket which might reasonably be expected to supply mobile equipment outdoors has no RCD provision. Regardless of current wording of the regulations that is a code 2.

 

[Flanders]

I think if you understand the dangers of using portable equipment outdoors you would give a code 2 observation for sockets liable to be used outdoor regardless of what tbe regs says and you can not rely on the fact that a rcd adapter would be used in a domestic environment