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M

maffa ent

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morning all!

i've an existing customer, a caravan park, and need to price eicr?

need to allow enough to carry out properly, but not upset anyone by overpricing?

they already have a price from previous company who did pir, but not very good service, so we're up on that score already!

they only tested zs's, so very little actually done. no rcd tests, ni ir's, no earth electrodes.

so, what would you say was the minimum, and limitations, or should i price to carry out more, and sell myself accordingly?
 
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S

SirKit Breaker

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  • #3
How many pitches, how many other buildings etc, and what part of the country. £18 seems a bit cheap to me, but then again its not bad if you have a good bit of work, and may get some remedials. I am in Yorkshire, and would be pricing it at about £25 per circuit, but if it were a nice little earner so to speak, then i may price for the entire job.
The extent and limitations of the EICR is down to agreement between yourself and the client, but as it is a caravan site i would want to be doing all of it, with no limitations.

Cheers..........Howard
 
M

maffa ent

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  • #4
i'm starting with zs's and rcd's, which is twice as much as the previous 'professionals' did. gonna use their circuit id, their drawings, their previous pir as a reference.

a bit embarrassed to say that i've priced it at £5 per circuit, but as these are one of my brst customers, i couldn't risk putting their nose out of joint.

nothing, i repeat nothing, other than plugging in the tester and carrying out 2 tests is involved, as a starting point.

customers are very aware of how, and why, it's priced like this, and are expecting a program of further tests, at extra cost, to follow.
 
To be honest what do you expect to really get out of the tests you are doing, to save you time I would not even bother with the Zs tests, if your doing just 2 tests then RCDs and IR would be my choice.

At a fiver a circuit I suspect you get what your paying for. But because of the environment you would expect to encounter at a caravan site I think you and the customer should have a rethink on what should and should not be done
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
i understand, but this is a site that i do a lot of work on - installation, planned and reactive maintenance, testing of all vans, new, resold and moved.

any ir issues will be dealt with as and when, and providing rcd's are in good order, they won't go undetected? not promising no inconvenience!

as far as safety is concerned, surely an effectively earthed supply, rcd protected, will suffice, for now?

i'm also gonna carry out a thorough visual, and any signs of ip issues will be carefully noted, with possibly an urgent recommend for ir testing?

as said before, it's very much a starting point, and my customers are fuuly aware of this.
 
M

maffa ent

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  • #7
sorry for spelling - thats iphones and fat fingers for ya!
 
G

Guest123

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  • #8
I wouldn't do a 3 bed semi for £5 per circuit, best customer or not!

You really need to revisit your pricing. I would suggest a minimum of £15 regardless, dependant on location & sampling etc.
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
neither would i, usually!

but this is nowhere near a full pir ( sorry eicr) and think about it - plug in tester at hook up, record results for 2 tests, paperwork already ready ie circuit id (reliable), cable sizes, mcb sizes, drawing etc.

limitations for now will be as previous pir - limited dead testing ( so no ir) no r1 + r2, no ring cont ( as no ring ccts).

if i cant do 10 circuits an hour, at least, i'll be very surprised!
 

Jimmy Boy

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Arms
Not having very much experience or eicr's I am amazed you can just lop of huge amounts of the testing procedures just to save costs what's the hells bells point of testing it ?.
I thought limitations were something agreed with clients were they didn't want sructures or furnishings disturbed.It worries me .
J
 
S

steveberry11

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Not having very much experience or eicr's I am amazed you can just lop of huge amounts of the testing procedures just to save costs what's the hells bells point of testing it ?.
I thought limitations were something agreed with clients were they didn't want sructures or furnishings disturbed.It worries me .
J[/QUOT

Jimmmy Boy

Good on you not much experience you say. I think you have more than most reading your reply.




I think that you should tread with caution when using the limitation box to make the job easy to complete, save money, or make the job fit the price. Making the statement that the coustomer is fully aware of the limitations he will agree any thing you advice if it's cheep. He probably does dot have a clue what you are talking about. As long as he has a piece of paper to wave if something goes wrong why should he worry, that's your job.
Your coustomer is hiring you to carry out a test and as he is not skilled in this field he is relying on you to give best advice to him. There should be no limitations unless absolutely necessary. Not to carry out a IR test R1+R2 or an Zs test and rely on the RCDs working is a very poor judgment.
It does not matter what limitations previous testers have used, you are doing this test do it right and do not look for short cuts. You may live to regret it. Sometimes you need to price the job as it is and if the coustomer does not like the price you need to walk away.
 
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ruston

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To be honest A good look around combined with the knowledge you have gained from previous work on the site will give you an indication of the state of the place. If it comes back and bites you on the bum , best customer or no they will be baying for your blood.

If you want to keep them by all means be cheap but be thorough . If you considered the other testers to be inadequate you do'nt want to go down the same route in my opinion.
 

richy3333

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I do a lot of caravan park testing. If it is a holiday site, well it's the wrong time of year to be turning off the power as you'll end up with a screaming mob after you because they can't watch Jeremy Kyle whilst on holiday with the kids!

Are you I & T'ing both buildings and the camping field?

Buildings are usually toilet blocks - so areas of higher risk. Then there is usually an office and sometimes a 'leisure' room/games room.

Camping field - you'll need to test the earth rod (and in my opinion that means a proper Ra test not a Ze). Chances are it will be 3 phase so you will need to Zs at the origins, RCD the time delayed main RCD unit(s). Zs's at DU's and then Zs and RCD at hook-ups. If they let you you should also be completing continuity and IR tests, but as I say if they won't let you isolate the power you will be unable to do this.

What do you mean by £5 a circuit? I presume you mean £5 a hook-up? But what are you charging for the DU's and the main boards? It's difficult to say without knowing the size of the site but the jobs going to take more than a day if you are on your own, but at £5 your not doing much better than their previous testers?

Don't assume that the previous companies test results are accurate nor accurately labelled/recorded. Is there a diagram of the electrical layout? Are you familiar with 3 phase and labelling/annotations conventions - L1/2 etc etc? It will probably be greater than 100A. Boards are often old, badly labelled (if at all) and do not necessarily have RCD protection for buildings. Then there's the issue of the historic labelling you have doesn't match what you see because the owners have renumbered all the pitches.

The site owners will only want the bear minimum to satisfy the LA conditions of trade and I doubt they will be happy to fend off an unhappy mass of campers without any electricity.

Be prepared to get ****-wet through, be prepared for your meter to die due to inclement weather and be prepared to get an ear-full of grief from campers whose son/grandson/nephew is a better electrician than you and earns zillions of pounds a year doing something less demeaning than testing out campsites.

I only do it cos I'm a masochist :)
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Thanks for the responses so far, from all.

I am very experienced with inspection and testing, so wouldn't dream of not testing effectivness of the earth provided to the caravanners by not testing zs at hookups.

This part of the eicr is specifically hook ups and associated du's.

Some 3 phase submains but only a handful, and only 1 tt system at ne of the 1st du's.

The owners are very aware, and very switched on, to things involved, and reasons for them.

Because i am their '1st call' spark we've had loads of conversations about how and why to go about things, including this part of the eicr. They aren't out to get the cheapest job just for the sake of it, but obviously want to save money wherever possible.

After careful consideration re price, talking to my NIC engineer, consulting BPG etc, I've made a decision that I'm happy with, and so are they. If I tell them that there is more to do, and explain the reasons, they'll be happy to listen.

I was just very wary of pricing myself out of the job at the start, and planting the smallest seed in their mind that my services were expensive. I know that some of you will understand that, and others will slate me for not doing the job throroughly, but it's really not like that.

I am at this moment, booked in to do the work, still in good books with one of my best customers, under no obligation to compromise the way I carry out my work, and happily watching the golf!

Oh, and enjoying some thought provoking banter on here!
 
i'm starting with zs's and rcd's, which is twice as much as the previous 'professionals' did. gonna use their circuit id, their drawings, their previous pir as a reference.

a bit embarrassed to say that i've priced it at £5 per circuit, but as these are one of my brst customers, i couldn't risk putting their nose out of joint.

nothing, i repeat nothing, other than plugging in the tester and carrying out 2 tests is involved, as a starting point.

customers are very aware of how, and why, it's priced like this, and are expecting a program of further tests, at extra cost, to follow.
I know times are tough and there is competition out there but pricing like this on these limitations pushes what should be an extra thorough test (considering the special location) towards the price bracket of PAT testing.
Each limitation or test that is not carried out reduces the ultimate value of the report and although you may arrive at a 'satisfactory' assessment based on your own 'spec', I would find it impossible to state that 'this installation is satisfactory for continued service' based on this.

We carried out a PIR on a local authority caravan site last year and ended up with 46 code 2s and 9 code 1 defects from 45 pitches, a site office and shop, the report done 3 years previously was assessed as 'satisfactory' from 'some' live testing.
We were at £22.00 per circuit, allowing roughly 30 minutes per circuit plus office time to input data and compile the file.
 

ruston

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I would be wary of a customer that you consider so good and despite your repeated conversations about how work should proceed are holding the carrot of another contractor over you to influence your decision. I would take careful note of the advice given by IQ.
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
say, for instance, the previous so called experts had priced as low as £10 per circuit (quite do-able, giving the detail of their report), they'd maybe have got the job this time? I didn't want to risk that.

As i've said previously, THESE TESTS ARE A STARTING POINT

How would you lads, who seem unable to grasp the above point, go about testing a bank? or a shop, during shop opening hours?

Turn up, "power's going off chief, we've got a test to do!"??

I'm gonna make a start, using for guidance, my knowledge, the regs, guidance notes, and a whole pile of common sense on the top!
 

ruston

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say, for instance, the previous so called experts had priced as low as £10 per circuit (quite do-able, giving the detail of their report), they'd maybe have got the job this time? I didn't want to risk that.

As i've said previously, THESE TESTS ARE A STARTING POINT

How would you lads, who seem unable to grasp the above point, go about testing a bank? or a shop, during shop opening hours?

Turn up, "power's going off chief, we've got a test to do!"??

I'm gonna make a start, using for guidance, my knowledge, the regs, guidance notes, and a whole pile of common sense on the top!
It's not us that asked for advice . You just do what you seem fit and good luck to you . More seem concerned than unconcerned is my last word on this.
 
say, for instance, the previous so called experts had priced as low as £10 per circuit (quite do-able, giving the detail of their report), they'd maybe have got the job this time? I didn't want to risk that.

As i've said previously, THESE TESTS ARE A STARTING POINT

How would you lads, who seem unable to grasp the above point, go about testing a bank? or a shop, during shop opening hours?

Turn up, "power's going off chief, we've got a test to do!"??

I'm gonna make a start, using for guidance, my knowledge, the regs, guidance notes, and a whole pile of common sense on the top!
For banks etc there are a series of meetings with IT, security etc. and a programme of isolations is usually agreed, often out of hours so the testing regime is not compromised by access/security issues.

These contracts can edge towards £30 per circuit but there's a lot of non productive time to factor in before you get sight of a distribution board!
 
S

steveberry11

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
Originally Posted by maffa ent
say, for instance, the previous so called experts had priced as low as £10 per circuit (quite do-able, giving the detail of their report), they'd maybe have got the job this time? I didn't want to risk that.

As i've said previously, THESE TESTS ARE A STARTING POINT

How would you lads, who seem unable to grasp the above point, go about testing a bank? or a shop, during shop opening hours?

Turn up, "power's going off chief, we've got a test to do!"??

I'm gonna make a start, using for guidance, my knowledge, the regs, guidance notes, and a whole pile of common sense on the top!



It's not us that asked for advice . You just do what you seem fit and good luck to you . More seem concerned than unconcerned is my last word on this.

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/i...ns/60821-eicr-caravan-park.html#ixzz21MOLDN5U


Out of interest what will your limitations be, and as you state these tests are a starting point. What worth will the EICR be if not a full test. Or have I missed your pont.
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
ir tests are to be carried out later in the year, when the site is quieter. reading through the posts now, i should have mentioned this, so sorry - i wasn't trying to misinform.

one of my main points, originally, was that, did the consensus feel it was fair to apply limitations for reasons other than electrical safety and operational reasons?

i feel, after the discussions, that i've done an acceptable thing.

as mentioned, the previous contractors ( specialists in this area) only drecorded zs readings!

any deviation from the reports that they've produced , eg circuit id, will be snagged by us and rectified at an extra cost
 

ruston

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Thats it , if a regime of regular maintenance and sample testing has been carried out it changes the position. But as was pointed out testing at an appropriate time of year would alleviate a lot of the testing restrictions on you . We'll just put it down to a lack of communication skills on my part lol.
 
M

maffa ent

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
an update, just fyi.

we've done all loops and rcd tests this week. a few failed rcd's. nothing unexpected.

we also found plenty of incorrect circuit id, so i'm going to speak to customers monday morning regarding the next job, correctly identifying all circuits, hook ups, du's.

not doing ir's just yet until site is quieter, but planned for later in the year.

also done some extra work for same customer on different site of theirs, and had several conversations about the fact that i don't need to worry about 'buying' their work, as they're more than happy with everything, so that's good.

i suppose what i was trying to sort out, in my own head and with the opinions of others, was how viable is it to carry out work like eicr's to a much lower standard than i usually do, simply because of price?

the fact is, i've always priced to do a thorough job, and will continue to do so, but sometimes my prices get laughed at, against other contractors who are simply not doing the work as well. i was feeling like i'd have to have a serious look at the way i priced work, but perhaps just a little tweeking will do for now!
 
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