EICR coding................

[Andy78]

I've been and done an inspection on a rented property today. Normally I am pretty sure of myself with codes but caught myself second guessing today so thought it might help freshen my head up to run a couple of points by the forum for opinion.

First one is a spur from a 2.5mm 32A ring final. It leaves the MCB in 2.5mm and feeds a single socket for a washing machine under a counter, then also an above counter SFCU for a kitchen extract fan. Seeing as this would not be likely to be subject to overload due to the socket being used for a dedicated purpose and the total load being limited to less than that of the cable CCC I was thinking a C3.

A similar issue with the boiler feed. It is protected by a 6A MCB but is only in 1mm cable. As the potential load is limited I'm thinking only a C3 for the cable not being the minimum 1.5mm required for power circuits.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Strima]

TBH a C3 from me as well as the circuits will not be subject to overloading. Just a note on each relevant circuit.

Would it be practical to move the washing machine circuit to another lower rated MCB?

 

[Andy78]

TBH a C3 from me as well as the circuits will not be subject to overloading. Just a note on each relevant circuit.

Would it be practical to move the washing machine circuit to another lower rated MCB?

It could be done, but not on site today as a breaker would have to be sourced and fitted.

 

[Jim90]

I'd go for a C3 as you've already said. If I had this in a commercial premises I would put a label on the outlet to notify for 'particular use only' for example. Just incase Mr. Bodger comes along and Spurs off it.

 

[sparksburnout]

I would be asking myself, other than adhering to the letter of BS7671, what exactly would the improvements that a C3 suggest achieve?
It has always puzzled me to be honest, that you can have either one single or one double socket on a spur off an RFC. What exactly is the difference between one double socket or two single sockets separated by another length of 2.5mm? I can only presume that it caters for those occasions where it is not obvious, to stop a further socket being run off the second single one. But in this case it is obvious?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It's simply because accessories are rated at 20A.
One accessory rated at 20A is ok, two accessories is not.

 

[Ian1981]

I wouldn’t code either to be honest.
I’m not convinced either of that 1.5mm power circuits the regs stipulate as 1mm supply for a boiler would be fine.
It’s a bit to vague to me as everything needs power.
I wire domestic smoke detectors in 1mm why the hell would I use 1.5?
Do smoke detectors fall under this 1.5mm power regulation?
It’s acceptable to come off the lights which normally are wired in 1mm so not convinced.
Even with a C3 what safety improvements can you recommend apart from rewiring a perfectly safe circuit as the boiler circuit would be(all other requirements fulfilled etc)

 

[telectrix]

no code in my book.but a comment on each of the 2 of the OP's points.

 

[westward10]

This is my personal opinion, the boiler I would not worry about. The multi outlet spur I am always going to C2 regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Octopus]

The comments on here about the boiler are very interesting , IAN1981's especially...... its not unheard of to wire a boiler to the lights ......

So yet another case of the regs not keeping up with reality.

Where do these people get their ideas from?

 

[Ian1981]

The comments on here about the boiler are very interesting , IAN1981's especially...... its not unheard of to wire a boiler to the lights ......

So yet another case of the regs not keeping up with reality.

Where do these people get their ideas from?

I meant smoke detectors wired from the lights , not a boiler supply.
Or have I miss understood?

 

[Octopus]

I meant smoke detectors wired from the lights , not a boiler supply.
Or have I miss understood?

Either or both ...... you raised very interesting points.....

 

[sparksburnout]

This is my personal opinion, the boiler I would not worry about. The multi outlet spur I am always going to C2 regardless of the circumstances.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidiculous

 

[sparksburnout]

The comments on here about the boiler are very interesting , IAN1981's especially...... its not unheard of to wire a boiler to the lights ......

So yet another case of the regs not keeping up with reality.

Where do these people get their ideas from?

Exactly. Is a "power circuit" anything other than a lighting circuit? A boiler takes next to nothing, and 1mm will murder it all day. It would be crackers to code a dedicated radial feeding a boiler in 1mm as a C3 in my opinion, in fact I would go as far as to say it would be touting for unnecessary work. Much the same for the spur in question, It might have been like that for years with no problem, so why try and fix it? Is there anything in the reg's that says you can't use your common sense?

 

[Ian1981]

See I read it as power such as you can use 1.5mm to say feed a single socket outlet for a washer fed of a 13amp switch fused spur as the max load allowed is 13 amps slowed by the bs 1362 fuse which the 1.5mm twin say buried in the wall will happily take.
This arrangement is also shown in appendix 15 (informative only)
That to me is power or an immersion heater, something that actually will pull a few amps at least, which a domestic boiler won’t even pull 1amp.
Of course my interpretation is maybe incorrect, which would mean all them security alarm circuits and smoke alarm circuits I’ve installed over the years using 1mm twin are also wrong
Whoops!

 

[westward10]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidiculous

OP asked for opinions, that is mine. I do not work on "not likely" and so forth.

 

[Risteard]

It’s acceptable to come off the lights which normally are wired in 1mm so not convinced.

If you come off the lights then they are connected to a lighting circuit, and 1mm^2 is therefore permissible. It's only if you utilise a dedicated circuit for the smoke detectors that it would be prohibited. (Yes, I do realise that it isn't any less safe.)

 

[Ian1981]

If you come off the lights then they are connected to a lighting circuit, and 1mm^2 is therefore permissible. It's only if you utilise a dedicated circuit for the smoke detectors that it would be prohibited. (Yes, I do realise that it isn't any less safe.)

Makes zero sense in my opinion and as you’ve stated it’s no less safe.
It should perhaps say non lighting circuits must be 1.5mm minimum (power is too vague in my opinion)
I’m not going to lose sleep over it tho.
I’m sure this particular table is going to be tweaked when the 18 th edition is released

As a side note this has never been picked up by any of the companies yearly NICEIC assessments that 1mm had been used to wire smoke detectors on a dedicated circuit.
Perhaps if they had pulled it then maybe I’d change the CSA

 

[Risteard]

I suspect the reasons for moving away from 1mm^2 are lack of mechanical robustness of such a small cable, and of course harmonisation. (Much/most of the rest of the world does not permit 1mm^2 conductors.)

I presume the exemption for lighting circuits was a first step towards outlawing it entirely.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks for the input guys, definite food for thought.

I have often thought that some of the rules in the regs do not make much sense with regard to safety when they are permitted in slightly differing arrangements.