EICR what code for inaccessible socket

[Adelaide]

The OP may find this interesting... https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

Zerax, thank you for this. I have read and it does seem an electrician can use his judgment as there is no exhaustive detailed list of faults published. From the examples given I think that neither of the C2 faults listed by my electrician can be classed as C2 but may be C3. What can I do if this electrician is using his judgement inappropriately to get himself work

 

[westward10]

The first thing you need to do is confront him. Remember Best Practice Guides although helpful are not the be all and end all it is down to an individuals judgement. I would be asking what factors he considered to warrant a Code 2 judgement and how this poses an urgent attention situation, if he cannot give valid reasons say you are going to lodge a complaint to the NICEIC and keep all correspondence to emails so you can use them.

 

[snowhead]

Ask him to explain what Plastic trunking he plans on installing that would give adequate mechanical protection and would not cause a C2 on a subsequent EICR for the same reason.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Of the cable in the airing cupboard is correctly supported throughout its length it’s not even a code.
Did he pull the washing machine out to test at the socket point? If not, why not?

 

[pc1966]

Always start politely and ask for some further explanation and justification for the coding. Hopefully it can be resolved without the need to take it further.
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Did he pull the washing machine out to test at the socket point? If not, why not?

I can see that is often more trouble than many inspections warrant as pipe work can get in the way, needing disconnection, and many machines can be too heavy to safely move on your own. But that is not an excuse for coding it as a fault!

 

[Wilko]

There is an official installation method named ‘clipped direct’ which is where suitably insulated and sheathed cables are fixed directly to a wall (say). This installation method results in a high current capacity for the cable and is quite safe because we can see exactly where not to drill . However, if the shower was energised by single insulated conductors then yes they need further containment for safety.

Out of interest would you like to post a closeup pic of this shower cable?

 

[Adelaide]

The first thing you need to do is confront him. Remember Best Practice Guides although helpful are not the be all and end all it is down to an individuals judgement. I would be asking what factors he considered to warrant a Code 2 judgement and how this poses an urgent attention situation, if he cannot give valid reasons say you are going to lodge a complaint to the NICEIC and keep all correspondence to emails so you can use them.

Thank you. I emailed him 2 questions and here are his replies....

ME: Regarding the washing machine, it's easy to pull it out or remove the non fixed little shelf unit next to it. Why is this dangerous. Why is it C2?
His reply: The access you are describing is not sufficient.

Me: What does shower cable need protecting from??
Reply : All cable below 2.4M in height need to be covered.

Incidentally, I actually had another electrician do an EICR a couple of weeks ago. He found neither of these issues!!!! He did advise changing a fuse and was going to come back to fix but unfortunately something serious happened to him shortly after before he came back or issued EICR. He is not working anymore, hence my need for this second electrician as I needed EICR for new tenancy.
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Of the cable in the airing cupboard is correctly supported throughout its length it’s not even a code.
Did he pull the washing machine out to test at the socket point? If not, why not?

[automerge]1601050422[/automerge]

Of the cable in the airing cupboard is correctly supported throughout its length it’s not even a code.
Did he pull the washing machine out to test at the socket point? If not, why not?

Of the cable in the airing cupboard is correctly supported throughout its length it’s not even a code.
Did he pull the washing machine out to test at the socket point? If not, why not?

I wasn't there unfortunately but I don't think he pulled out machine or tested socket.

 

[David Prosser]

Thank you. I emailed him 2 questions and here are his replies....

ME: Regarding the washing machine, it's easy to pull it out or remove the non fixed little shelf unit next to it. Why is this dangerous. Why is it C2?
His reply: The access you are describing is not sufficient.

Me: What does shower cable need protecting from??
Reply : All cable below 2.4M in height need to be covered.

Incidentally, I actually had another electrician do an EICR a couple of weeks ago. He found neither of these issues!!!! He did advise changing a fuse and was going to come back to fix but unfortunately something serious happened to him shortly after before he came back or issued EICR. He is not working anymore, hence my need for this second electrician as I needed EICR for new tenancy.
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I wasn't there unfortunately but I don't think he pulled out machine or tested socket.

Maybe ask him to clarify which individual regs are being broken. A picture of the cable in the airing cupboard would help a lot.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Ahh yes pictures would help. You are more than in your right to ask where in BS7671 the observation is non-compliant aswell.

We will see a thread in a bit asking for ref numbers ?

 

[snowhead]

He's made his responses.
Email the NICEIC and ask them to confirm his statements.
Maybe include pictures of the washeing machine /access to it and also the cable in the airing cupboard.

 

[westward10]

As above those responses are ridiculous unless he is willing to change his approach contact the NICEIC and tell him what you plan to do.

 

[Vortigern]

What can I do if this electrician is using his judgement inappropriately to get himself work

Simple, get another electrician to do the remedial work.

 

[telectrix]

both those C2's are a joke. at the absolute worst, the socket behind the w/m could be a LIM. the airing cupboard cable is compliant. the idiot who did the eicr needs retaining. he's incompetent.perhaps he should take up plumbing or shelf srtacking.

 

[Dartlec]

Chiming in to add to the agreement that this coding seems harsh, bordering on unreasonable - assuming that there isn't something that can't be seen or hasn't been mentioned.

Unfortunately (Or fortunately, depending on your view), EICRs are left to the engineering judgement of the inspector and are not merely a tick box exercise. However, any coding should be linked to relevant regs to back up the code, not just on the basis of what is 'nice'.

There is a general regulation that isolation should be available, and in a new installation, it would be good practise to put a fused spur to control this socket, but that doesn't mean the lack of it reaches the level of a C2 (potential danger) in my view.

In theory, as I read the law for landlords (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer), you do not need to get the EICR reissued with a 'satisfactory' rating - you merely need to have confirmed in writing that "remedial works necessary" have been done. This, together with your original certificate, should then show that you have complied with the law.

So something in writing from a suitable electrician stating that the issues mentioned do not create a potential danger may cover you, and cost less than having yet another EICR done.

Unfortunately, letting agents or tenants will likely only see the 'unsatisfactory' on the EICR and have a negative reaction, so it's not the best situation.

Contacting the NICEIC is certainly worth doing, if only because it may raise an awkward question at the next assessment and ensure the contractor involved does at least know how to back up his findings with actual regulations.

 

[westward10]

There is no requirement to quote Regulation numbers.

 

[Julie.]

Me: What does shower cable need protecting from??
Reply : All cable below 2.4M in height need to be covered.

Was the guy an ex utility man?

There is a rule in en43-8 that requires mechanical protection on all utility cables when fixed on the outside and directly to buildings below 2.4m

This does not extend to internal wiring systems.

In reality if the cable is installation method c (fixed direct) and it is then enclosed in trunking or conduit it will have a lower current capacity, I don't know sizes of cable or ratings of load, but if wrong, it could convert a safe installation into one susceptible to overheating.

Unlikely, but actually possible.

 

[Dartlec]

There is no requirement to quote Regulation numbers.

Agreed - however, since the EICR is against the latest regulations the codes should be traceable back to a regulation number on request to support the judgement, surely? It's the reason why the BPG states that certain things outside the regulations may be poor practise but should not be coded.

My software automatically includes them and I leave them in because I think they are useful, if not to the customer, then to anyone else looking at the observations.

 

[westward10]

Software may well include them but there is no requirement to include them, let's face it nine times out of ten they are meaningless to the client unless they have the document to reference them to. The Best Practice Guide is not really relevant.

 

[Grant1987]

Software may well include them but there is no requirement to include them, let's face it nine times out of ten they are meaningless to the client unless they have the document to reference them to. The Best Practice Guide is not really relevant.

I don’t quote regs numbers these days as I’m doing old fashioned pen and paper I just write description where it reflects the regs number, however I was using easy cert by tysoft previously which automatically brings up the regs number I will be converting back to digital ASAP because it does look more professional

 

[Julie.]

I know you don't like the idea of providing this information, but I think it is useful especially in cases such as this where it could reduce the nonsense observations - if the guy believes there is a rule stating that cables lower than 2.4m have to be enclosed and he has to find it, perhaps if he can't he will realise it isn't the case and shouldn't be coded