Instyle LED Lighting Specialists UK
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

ELECSA Certification Scheme ELECSA assessment. Domestic+Periodic

Discuss ELECSA assessment. Domestic+Periodic in the Certification NICEIC, NAPIT, Stroma, BECSA Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

R

robsparx

Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:  American Electrical Advice Forum

Hi, I am looking to register with ELECSA as a domestic installer soon, as I'm out of a job, and a few people want to send some private work my way. The domestic assessment sounds straight foward. Am i ok to complete a job eg. a rewire, then get it assessed and sign it off once my registration is complete?

And I am booked in to do my 2391 at the end of May. The ELECSA website states "It is agreed and generally accepted that an above average knowledge of electrical installations is required to carry out Periodic Inspections, usually gained through years of experience on top of formal qualifications (eg. C&G 2391)"

Well I have only recently come through my apprenticeship so would they see me as having enough experience to be carrying out periodics? I have had experience assisting with periodics on domestic properties, and hotels and schools whilst an apprentice, and then carrying out the remedials, so I feel i should know enough about what to look for in domestic properties

Sorry if thats a bit long winded :eek:
 
Aico 3000 Range
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
As long as you are confident you will pass then you can notify after you have been assessed. Thats what i did.

As for periodics, i just do them anyway and use their paperwork. Only thing is i cant register them, but then im not bothered about that anyway.

If you are being assessed for PIR's, if you have no real experience as such, then you may come unstuck on certain things. Testing is only part of a PIR, its the rest that can catch you out.

Good luck!
 
R

ron55

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
As for periodics, i just do them anyway and use their paperwork. Only thing is i cant register them, but then im not bothered about that anyway.
Hi Jason

This is really interesting for me as I was just about to complete the application tonight fo periodics! May I ask why you are not bothered about registering them because I don't want to spend the money if I don't have to.

Cheers, Ron
 
R

robsparx

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Ok cool, should be ok then.

As for periodics, i just do them anyway and use their paperwork. Only thing is i cant register them, but then im not bothered about that anyway.
yeh thats interesting. so you dont have any legal obligation to register results of a periodic? Why would you pay 300 quid to register them if you dont need to?
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
When i spoke to them about registering, they said thats its only worth it if you do a lot of them, which i dont, as its not the main part of my business.

There is no requirement under bs7671 or any document, to register them.
 
R

raylewis

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Jason is quite right there is no requirement to register periodics
I am a member of Elecsa
Join them to get your part P for installation certification

Periodics with them costs and is only there to register the periodic on their records
Its not worth the money and as Jason said its not a BS7671 requirement

Ray
 
R

robsparx

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
nice. wont bother with that then
 
T

TPES

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Yeah very Interesting.. So how does your PIR stand legally?
As your not registered would it not count for anything? in a court for example..
If your registered for domestic work what certs do you use to do your occasional PIR's?
Do elecsa give you PIR pads if you ask for them even if your not registered to do so with them?

Im confused
 
W

Wotsit

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
PIR along with all other relevent BS forms are available from the IET website. there is no legal requirement to use any others.
 
T

TPES

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
PIR along with all other relevent BS forms are available from the IET website. there is no legal requirement to use any others.
So just download and print out a PIR form from the IET website, complete a periodic and hand it straight to the customer..?

And this is a genuine as any other periodic from anyone else ?
 
W

Wotsit

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
In a court you would have to prove you were competent. i.e held relevant qualifications or experience.

In regard to registration remember everybody wants to take your money!

So just download and print out a PIR form from the IET website, complete a periodic and hand it straight to the customer..?

And this is a genuine as any other periodic from anyone else ?
It is the form that all others are based on. I'll find the link

Here:

Forms for electrical contractors - The IET
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The important thing to remember about PIR`s is NOT can you carry them out ? - but will you be covered by insurance in the event of a claim? I think that you will find that a minimum of 5 years relevent experience of INSTALLATION work and electrical installation qualifications will be required by an insurance underwriter AND proof of competence that would stand up in court i.e. C&G 2391 (not the NICEIC mickey mouse version) - the theory ( which I fully spoort) being that you need experience of installation work within a particular sector to enable you to know what to look for. PIR`s are largely a black art and the standard testing procedure is only a small part of what is really required.

I attended the ELEX 2008 at Coventry last September. I spoke for quite a while to the ELECSA guy and I was quite shocked by his cavalier attitude towards PIR`s - he did his best to dissuade me from carrying them out as this would effectively increase my yearly fee`s. As regards to his attitude to who could carry them out - well no mention WHATSOEVER was made of Professional Indemnity Insurance!

Worrying to say the least.:eek:

I feel that some people may be being led down the garden path by their scheme providers............
 
L

luke28davis

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
On Ebay there is a CD that is sold that has all PIR paper and all other certs that can be printed out by computer. It has all NICEIC and NAPIT certs but with there logos and names off them making them ok to use plus they cost nothing to print out ur self.I am looking to register with ELECSA as they seem to look after us (electricians) when NICEIC seem to just want money after money coz there so highly reconized!!seems to cost a bunch of money when im currently un-employed but needing to register for work.seems us electricians get over-charged on courses and registering its pants.
 
S

sambuca2907

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Hi, I am looking to register with ELECSA as a domestic installer soon, as I'm out of a job, and a few people want to send some private work my way. The domestic assessment sounds straight foward. Am i ok to complete a job eg. a rewire, then get it assessed and sign it off once my registration is complete?

And I am booked in to do my 2391 at the end of May. The ELECSA website states "It is agreed and generally accepted that an above average knowledge of electrical installations is required to carry out Periodic Inspections, usually gained through years of experience on top of formal qualifications (eg. C&G 2391)"

Well I have only recently come through my apprenticeship so would they see me as having enough experience to be carrying out periodics? I have had experience assisting with periodics on domestic properties, and hotels and schools whilst an apprentice, and then carrying out the remedials, so I feel i should know enough about what to look for in domestic properties

Sorry if thats a bit long winded :eek:
Hey robsparx,

I to will be doing the Elecsa assessment in the next few months also...

This is my understanding of their "Guide to the Part P registration" document, you just need to be able to:

"demonstrate a full grasp of Inspection and Testing relevant to the type of installation work that you are carrying out. You must be able to demonstrate that you are fully capable of inspecting and testing the installations you undertake and complete"

That to me says that you do not need any formal Ins. & Test qualifications to pass their assessment... just to show competence...
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Yes, but only 'inspecting and testing the installations you undertake and complete'.

This is different from requirements to be able to carry out PIR's.
 
T

TPES

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
To join elecsa you will need some kind of regulations cert i think.
Idealy 17th regs level 3 cert 2382, if not 16th regs and need to upgrade to the 17th regs within your fist 12 mths of joining..

I think this a minimum needed by any of the scheme providers..
 
S

sambuca2907

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
To join elecsa you will need some kind of regulations cert i think.
Idealy 17th regs level 3 cert 2382, if not 16th regs and need to upgrade to the 17th regs within your fist 12 mths of joining..

I think this a minimum needed by any of the scheme providers..
Am talking about test and inspect quals - 2391 and 2392.
 
S

sparkswillfly

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
at the end of the day if you are competent in inspection and testing and can actualy do the job you should walk it as all the assessers know who can and who cant do the job within the first 5 minutes
 
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Hiya guys, Am I right in thinking that anyone who thinks they are competent and just do a PIR and hand a copy to the customer would be ok ???????

I have just completed my 3291 and am now in the position where everyone wants me to do some work for them ( with a cost of course ) but am still getting to grips with the mind field of all the regs thats involved, Can anyone advise????

What certs can I use and where can I get them from?

Seems like everyone just want to get there hands on your money to register with competent scemes and to register certs etc; etc..............
 
E

electricAl

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
First things first - get your Professional Indemnity insurance in place.

As for which certs to use, if your not attached to one of the Part P scheming bodies, download the BS7671 PIR sheets using the link provided above

(i assume you do mean 2391)
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Download them from the IET.

Or buy some unbranded generic ones.

To use the scheme providers forms you must register to do PIR's with them. At a small fee, of course.
 
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
So it is legal for me to do the PIR without the cert being registered with anyone other then me and the costumer?????
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
So it is legal for me to do the PIR without the cert being registered with anyone other then me and the costumer?????
Perfectly legal.

Its a sad fact that anyone qualified or not can carry out PIR's on generic forms.

One thing i would say is make sure you have sufficient PI insurance in place.
 
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
This is the fuse board i'll be testing, any advice??? The rcd you see on the right hand side is for a shower................it's a TN-S system and the main earth is only a 4mm/ 6mm????
 

Attachments

Last edited by a moderator:
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Well, from even just looking at the picture i could give you a list as long as your arm:D
 
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
Well, from even just looking at the picture i could give you a list as long as your arm:D

Please do as I think I need all the help I can get lol................I have the cofidence to do any of the work but there's always somthing i'm likely to miss so any pointers will be very much appreciated :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
E

electricAl

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
You say you have the confidence to do any of the work... pardon me if i`ve got the wrong end of the stick but isn`t `the work` (in this case) the PIR you mentioned?

If, as you say, you believe your competent to do a Periodic, then i suggest you post what you see as non-compliances & then others can offer their opinions.

We all need a `little` help sometimes - after all, no-ones inflammable
 
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
You say you have the confidence to do any of the work... pardon me if i`ve got the wrong end of the stick but isn`t `the work` (in this case) the PIR you mentioned?

If, as you say, you believe your competent to do a Periodic, then i suggest you post what you see as non-compliances & then others can offer their opinions.

We all need a `little` help sometimes - after all, no-ones inflammable

I do have the confidence to do the PIR as you can all tell that this install is no longer compliant.............Having 60A isolater...no RCD other then for the shower........etc, ect I am in the position to rectify any thing thats need doing, so just trying to go about doing the job in the least exspensive way as possible...so just looking for any thing that I haven't thought of

Upgrading the board to a new 17th ..........taking out the isolater and replacing it with a Rcd as a main swith ( in a class II enclouser ) for the whole installation and keeping the existing board providing it conforms to all the tests.

I got the comfidence to do it but experience is lacking I have to admit but I can't let that stop me doing what I have to do........which is why I'm here trying to get advice from the pro's rather then just rushing in and ballsing it all up... so advice would be very much appreciated after all Two haeds are better then one even if we are only sheep lol.....but in all seriousness any comments will be taken on board .........:):)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
E

electricAl

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
No offence intended atall Rob, so hopefully none taken your end.:)

But are you actually doing a pucka PIR, or doing a CU change, or doing a quick assessment ahead of a proposed install job. Your various comments leave me a little confused...:confused:

Firstly, altho you mention you do have a 2391 (& they don`t give those away) you haven`t instilled too much confidence with some of your remarks (e.g. Regs & minefield) No-one passes a Periodic exam without knowing BS7671 at least fairly well. We all have holes to our knowledge & i`ll gladly help you fill some of yours (& hopefully my own at the same time)

Likewise, if you`re Part P reg`d you`ll surely be familiar with most of the pertinent regs. If not, be aware what you`re gonna do will be notifiable. And as it was you who mentioned legalities a bit ago...

Lecture mode off :cool:

So, making the assumption that this work is for a PartyPee assessment ;) we`ll all stick our noses in & make an obsevation or two...

Q. How sure are you that`s not an ELCB mate? Kind a looooks like one from the pic :eek:

Q. How sure are you that it`s a TN. The tails coming in plus that Volt op` RCB has me wondering see

Q. Have you actually seen the service head? The above will quickly be answered...


If, as you say it is TN then i`d suggest you get the DNO in to sort out those tails tother side of that isolator before you consider getting assessed on this job. Obviously you`ll do the rest with the Cu change.
Talking of which, forget the idea of the front end RCD - very non comp mate. No discrimination atall. You should already know that. If you get a true 17th board you won`t even need it. And if it does turn out to be a TT you can do without it too if you can do what table 41.1 states.

Anyhowsaround, i`ll leave it at that for fear of lecturing again :(

Sorry if it`s sounded more blah, blah than bah, bah but i`ve had me coat dyed pink today :D

Best regards, Al
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

rob1967

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
No offence intended atall Rob, so hopefully none taken your end.:)

But are you actually doing a pucka PIR, or doing a CU change, or doing a quick assessment ahead of a proposed install job. Your various comments leave me a little confused...:confused:

Firstly, altho you mention you do have a 2391 (& they don`t give those away) you haven`t instilled too much confidence with some of your remarks (e.g. Regs & minefield) No-one passes a Periodic exam without knowing BS7671 at least fairly well. We all have holes to our knowledge & i`ll gladly help you fill some of yours (& hopefully my own at the same time)

Likewise, if you`re Part P reg`d you`ll surely be familiar with most of the pertinent regs. If not, be aware what you`re gonna do will be notifiable. And as it was you who mentioned legalities a bit ago...

Lecture mode off :cool:

So, making the assumption that this work is for a PartyPee assessment ;) we`ll all stick our noses in & make an obsevation or two...

Q. How sure are you that`s not an ELCB mate? Kind a looooks like one from the pic :eek:

Q. How sure are you that it`s a TN. The tails coming in plus that Volt op` RCB has me wondering see

Q. Have you actually seen the service head? The above will quickly be answered...


If, as you say it is TN then i`d suggest you get the DNO in to sort out those tails tother side of that isolator before you consider getting assessed on this job. Obviously you`ll do the rest with the Cu change.
Talking of which, forget the idea of the front end RCD - very non comp mate. No discrimination atall. You should already know that. If you get a true 17th board you won`t even need it. And if it does turn out to be a TT you can do without it too if you can do what table 41.1 states.

Anyhowsaround, i`ll leave it at that for fear of lecturing again :(

Sorry if it`s sounded more blah, blah than bah, bah but i`ve had me coat dyed pink today :D

Best regards, Al

Thanks for your reply and no offence was taken, life is to short to take offence :cool: besides advice is what I asked for and that is what I was given no matter in what form it takes lol :).......

Im doing all of the above, quick assesment, and bringing it up to the 17th standards and a PIR after on the whole installation just to make sure :D ( Sorry for any confusion lol.....)

I have to many quilifications but not enough experience (2330-2...2330-3...2391....2382.....Part P VRQ level 2...) still have a lot to learn but want to do the job once and get it right first time.......
Was just looking for the cheapest option..it's defo a TN system and yes that is a ELCB but it's only rated at a 60A and the demand will be greater then that once the house is up and running again........
ELCBs are not recognised as a means of providing additional protection in BS7671 (2008) due to them requiring an earth as thay work by detecting a voltage to earth, the fault is driven throught the device and once it exceeds it's setting (50V) it would operate..........but most installs have had upgrades and the earth paths have been parrelled with the ELCB so making the ELCB ineffective.......
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bulk Workwear - Clothing Suppliers for the Whole Forum Network
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

Reply to ELECSA assessment. Domestic+Periodic in the Certification NICEIC, NAPIT, Stroma, BECSA Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Aico 3000 Range
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members
Top Bottom