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i'm currently registered with elecsa under the part p scheme
i'm fully qualified,c&g electricians cert in '94,jib approved,17th ed,nvq3 (no 2391 though) blah blah
what's the best body between the two to be 'down' with
taking into account cost,support etc
what do you need to do to be an approved contractor (nic)rather than a domestic installer(nic) because you see all manner of people displaying a dom installer logo.
i'm fed up of having to explain to callers that elecsa is the same thing as niceic.
some people even ask for discounts because i'm not niceic!!!!
 
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S

Spudnik

Elecsa are perfect if you want to just 'get on with job' and comply.

However, NIC are generally known for their lack of support to contractors, but then, they are a body set up for the customer, not the electrician. They also ask for a more from a contractor, than the minimum requirements set out by the government.

Their approved contractor scheme is mainly for commercial and industrial electricians, so you would need to show them, amongst other things, some commercial jobs you have done for your assessment.

If you are being asked if you are NIC and you are loosing work because you are not, then you only have one option. But be prepared to sort out your own problems.

Having said all that, there are some electricians that are quite happy with them.
 
S

smoggy

i'm currently registered with elecsa under the part p scheme
i'm fully qualified,c&g electricians cert in '94,jib approved,17th ed,nvq3 (no 2391 though) blah blah
what's the best body between the two to be 'down' with
taking into account cost,support etc
what do you need to do to be an approved contractor (nic)rather than a domestic installer(nic) because you see all manner of people displaying a dom installer logo.
i'm fed up of having to explain to callers that elecsa is the same thing as niceic.
some people even ask for discounts because i'm not niceic!!!!
I was with nic now with elecsa, elecsa more friendly and imo were stricter on my assessment , if i get asked i explain elecsa owned by eca and british gas/electric are with them. touch wood i havn't lost a job because of it. at the moment i'm getting asked if i will give a discount for no cert.:eek:
 
C

coxy

Hi I was with nappit for 1 year then went with nic basically because they are well known.I get jobs that specify nic registration - most people have no idea who elesca or nappit are.Been with nic for 3 years and going for approved status.I find them fine no problems,sometimes call tech support who can solve problems.One thing frustrating is that all part p governing bodies have different values, for instance nappit will make you earth metal back boxes where as nic dont.With the nic to join the domestic installer scheme you dont even need to be a registered sparky !!! I believe that there should be 1 scheme all of us belong to !!!!! Ps Sorry no nothing about elesca !
 
S

sparks72

I'm with NICEIC, not bad, but contacting them is a ball ache!
Mate of mine is with Elecsa, from what he has told me Elecsa are far more superior
when it comes to support etc. (I might join them & leave NICEIC)
 
P

pushrod

Hi I was with nappit for 1 year then went with nic basically because they are well known.I get jobs that specify nic registration - most people have no idea who elesca or nappit are.Been with nic for 3 years and going for approved status.I find them fine no problems,sometimes call tech support who can solve problems.One thing frustrating is that all part p governing bodies have different values, for instance nappit will make you earth metal back boxes where as nic dont.With the nic to join the domestic installer scheme you dont even need to be a registered sparky !!! I believe that there should be 1 scheme all of us belong to !!!!! Ps Sorry no nothing about elesca !
What is a registered sparky?
 
what sort of things do they ask on asessment, can your assessment be at home, showing jobs youve done etc.....which one is the more stringent...how can you fail assessment.....im working shifts at the mo and get quite a lot of time off so im thinking of starting out doing some domestic work or something but need to get my house in order first and do some groundwork, will also be interesting to any ones views or opinions thanks in advance....
 
P

pushrod

I have a friend who had is elecsa assessment on work he had done in his home.
 
S

Spudnik

NICEIC are for the customer, not the contractor.

ECA/Elecsa and the others are there for the contractor.
 
A

Anonomoose

I have just started on my own and am with Elecsa. I had my assesment last Wednesday. It was very thorough. He asked me lots of technical questions, watched me test and checked all my documents.
As it was my first time and going on my own I didnt have any work to show the assessor so I only had the option to change my own consumer unit in my house. He said that this was fine but next year if i could get two jobs one in progress on completed that would be good.
I get a bit ****** off with all the TV programs that only say use an NIC approved electrician. They should mention the ECA and Elecsa as we have had to be assessed and signed off before we work.
 
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A

adsday78

Is that seriously true about not tagging boxes? I am not trying to insult anyboy, but I have not read that in the regs, not that i know it word for word. Surely though the reason for tagging boxes is because the accessorie screw is in contact with it and fixings could inadvertantly come into contact with some structural metal, therefore if the box somehow becomes live then so do the things i mentioned.
 
M

Modernelectric

I'm with Elecsa and have noticed a lot of previously NIC registered sparks in my local area now displaying Elecsa signs on their vans. I think it comes down to cost more than anything.
 
I

ICE

As far as I am aware if a metal back box has one fixed lug (which most do) and if it is not a TNC-S system them the back box does not have to have a fly lead...
 
W

welsh spark

Hi, i used to be with nic and moved to elecsa not for only the price when i ring elecsa for anything their always helpfull and answer the phone unlike nic elecsa seem to be more for the contractor than just the customer i would recomend elecsa to anyone :)
 
S

Spudnik

As far as I am aware if a metal back box has one fixed lug (which most do) and if it is not a TNC-S system them the back box does not have to have a fly lead...
It does not matter what type of earthing system there is.

As you said, providing there is one fixed lug, there is no requirement to earth boxes, although it is good practice.

:)
 
M

matt456

350 +vat?
the niceic is around 420 all in
cant see a massive saving there?
 
A

adsday78

Thanks for replies. I have been thinking about going with elecsa for some time and after reading forums it seems to be the right choice. I thought it was £450 plus Vat with an extra £200 if you want to do periodics.
I think the NIC is to expensive and you are paying more for a brand, at the end of the day all i want to do is work it costs enough as it is without feeling like you are forced into wearing the designer label of the electricians world. It cost enough to get qualifications I managed to pay £50 for my 2382 cos i found a college that would just let me sit the exam I couldn't find one for my 2391, which i ended up paying £550 for 3 days of doing past papers and a diluted version of guidance note 3. I could have done that at home as i did with my 17th.

Elecsa is £370 plus Vat if booked online. I thought the NIC one for £450 is for kitchen fitters and electricians need to be under the NIC approved contractor thingy majig which is definitely more than £450
 
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hi

£420 for approved contractor but they are now doing full day visits instead of half and are chrging an extra £290 for it. :( But the majority of sparks in my area are with nic.
 
M

mandrake

I'm just in the process of applying for elecsa registration, i intend to get the assessment done on my own house, Nic didn't seen to want to know unless you have been trading for 5 years and napit seemed (in my opinion) more geared for multi skilled trades (kitchen / bathroom fitters). all i can tell you so far is its £444 to apply, £280 for the assessment with some conditions (no more than 1/2 hour travel from your home etc) this gives you the ability to sign off any part p full scope works without going through the local building control. I'll keep you posted as i go through the process..... but i don't expect a 'Rapid Response' so don't hold yer breath :nonod:
 
S

sparks72

I'm just in the process of applying for elecsa registration, i intend to get the assessment done on my own house, Nic didn't seen to want to know unless you have been trading for 5 years and napit seemed (in my opinion) more geared for multi skilled trades (kitchen / bathroom fitters). all i can tell you so far is its £444 to apply, £280 for the assessment with some conditions (no more than 1/2 hour travel from your home etc) this gives you the ability to sign off any part p full scope works without going through the local building control. I'll keep you posted as i go through the process..... but i don't expect a 'Rapid Response' so don't hold yer breath :nonod:
Are you going down the Part Pee route?

Depending how deaperate you are I would hang fire as Part P is under government review as of next month.
What qualification do you have?, why not approach your LABC & see if they'll except your certificates. I know a few lads who are doing it theses days, saves them a small fortune.
Just a thought.
 
M

mandrake

Thankyou sparks72, i'll try the LABC see what they have to say, its the first time I've heard of this approach got to be worth a phonecall at least.

C&G 2382, 2391, Full scope level 'A' and Periodic inspection reporting all for 17th Edition
 
S

sparks72

Thankyou sparks72, i'll try the LABC see what they have to say, its the first time I've heard of this approach got to be worth a phonecall at least.

C&G 2382, 2391, Full scope level 'A' and Periodic inspection reporting all for 17th Edition
Your welcome.

I know 3 guys doing it this way. 2 of them since part pee came out.

good luck & let me know how you get on.
 
W

Welchyboy

i was with elecsa they are good but i got ****ed off with people keep asking me if i was NIC registered and then thinking i am incompetant when i said no, you can try and explain that elecsa and nic DI are basically the same thing but really the customer has allready made up their minds.

But then again some dont give a flying ---- as long as the light comes on when they press the switch.

So i changed to NIC DI.......

I am now in that stuation all over again where i am doing more and more commercial work and have had a few good installs/insurance PIRs etc come my way, then they say 'are you nic approved' and i say well no but i am a competent person and can issue you with a PIR, then they say 'but why have you got an NICEIC sign on your van then?'...........try explaining that one to joe public in one sentance.....oh well here we go again, looks like its more of my hard earned goin to the good ol' NIC, just so i can be considered competant and do a days work!

So it seems to me the bottom line is if you want to expand your business properly and want total freedom in the electrical contracting field to take on the work that comes your way (within reason), then you have to pay the NIC for it!

And i thought they were a charity organisation?!
 
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S

sparks72

i was with elecsa they are good but i got ****ed off with people keep asking me if i was NIC registered and then thinking i am incompetant when i said no, you can try and explain that elecsa and nic DI are basically the same thing but really the customer has allready made up their minds.

But then again some dont give a flying ---- as long as the light comes on when they press the switch.

So i changed to NIC DI.......

I am now in that stuation all over again where i am doing more and more commercial work and have had a few good installs/insurance PIRs etc come my way, then they say 'are you nic approved' and i say well no but i am a competent person and can issue you with a PIR, then they say 'but why have you got an NICEIC sign on your van then?'...........try explaining that one to joe public in one sentance.....oh well here we go again, looks like its more of my hard earned goin to the good ol' NIC, just so i can be considered competant and do a days work!

So it seems to me the bottom line is if you want to expand your business properly and want total freedom in the electrical contracting field to take on the work that comes your way (within reason), then you have to pay the NIC for it!

And i thought they were a charity organisation?!
What qualifications do you have?

Some people get confused when they join the DI scheme, originally it was meant for kitchen & bathroom fitters but was extended to working Electricians.(apparentyl!)
The DI scheme doesn't make you an 'approved' contractor overnight.


IMO with the DI scheme your put in a catergory like a scond class citizen. (or in this case, a second class Electrician)
If you have your 2391 & 17th edition you can become an approved contractor. If you only have your 17th edition, you can only be on the DI scheme.

In a nutshell:

If you don't have all the qualifications an electrician should have, then you can't class yourself as an Electrician.

The NICEIC have clearly failed to point this out, another shambles of theirs!
 
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W

Welchyboy

Yes i understand DI is not an approved contractor by any stretch, what i am trying to get at is the confusion that is all the various levels of competence schemes


i am qualified 2360,2391,2382 nvq3, JIB gold App elec and i am currently awaiting my asessment for A/C, but my point was, if your serious about being in this trade and are not content with staying in the domestic market, like it or not you really need the full NIC approved staus,its not just Part P you need, whereas years back you could just self cert commercial work i now find for most serious jobs A/C is nearly allways required and it will only get stricter as time goes on,
i can see it wont be long before a part P type model will stretch to most types of electrical works, and an unregistered spark will not be able to do much at all
 
S

sparks72

Yes i understand DI is not an approved contractor by any stretch, what i am trying to get at is the confusion that is all the various levels of competence schemes


i am qualified 2360,2391,2382 nvq3, JIB gold App elec and i am currently awaiting my asessment for A/C, but my point was, if your serious about being in this trade and are not content with staying in the domestic market, like it or not you really need the full NIC approved staus,its not just Part P you need, whereas years back you could just self cert commercial work i now find for most serious jobs A/C is nearly allways required and it will only get stricter as time goes on,
Might as well go approved then. you'll find companys want NICEC contractors because their insurance insist on them using NICEIC contractors.
Insurance!, another field the NICEIC is in, word has it that Zurich insurance is owned or part owned by the NICEC, a nice money spinner for them.

i can see it wont be long before a part P type model will stretch to most types of electrical works, and an unregistered spark will not be able to do much at all
No law whatsoever is going to stop unregistered Electricians from doing work. (unless the punishment is death by firing squad)
 
A

alberthot

Warning to all electricians. I might be telling you something you already know but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TOUCH THE niceic. They are USELESS. any other body will be 10 times better han these people. If you want to learn the hard way (like I did) and join them, thats up to you but don't say I didn't warn you. This is a forum where you can get advice and this is the best advice I can give you.
 
Warning to all electricians. I might be telling you something you already know but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TOUCH THE niceic. They are USELESS. any other body will be 10 times better han these people. If you want to learn the hard way (like I did) and join them, thats up to you but don't say I didn't warn you. This is a forum where you can get advice and this is the best advice I can give you.
Well I've seen a few pro and anti NICEIC posts before but none quite so vehement. Why are they so bad in your considered opinion?
 
A

alberthot

nobody up there knows what they are doing. Tech help is terrible. They seem to do everything they can to **** you off. They contradict themselves and others. they are argumentative. I could go on but no time. Hope this helps.
 
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M

mandrake

Originally Posted by mandrake
Thankyou sparks72, i'll try the LABC see what they have to say, its the first time I've heard of this approach got to be worth a phonecall at least.

C&G 2382, 2391, Full scope level 'A' and Periodic inspection reporting all for 17th Edition
Your welcome.

I know 3 guys doing it this way. 2 of them since part pee came out.

good luck & let me know how you get on.
I tried to contact the LABC but i am at a major geographical disadvantage with this approach Chorley, Bolton & Wigan are all separate areas (for labc purposes) and i am located in Chorley area, right on the edge (literally 200 yards away) of Bolton and under 1/2 a mile from Wigan so i need all three labc's to accept me or seriously limit where i can work. Preston(Chorley) were clueless, Wigan assumed that i would 'get someone to sign it off for you' and Bolton were by far the most helpful but didn't know of any such scheme operating in the Manchester area so part Pee route with elecsa it is. booked for Nov 11th and a new 1st amendment 17th edition + toolbox guide needed too, ouch.
When i have 5 mins spare I'll type up the checklist they require for documentation, Complaint procedure and insurance cover etc
 
P

pjay

with regard to the governments review of part p looks like it will be a while yet until things change.

"Having reviewed the responses, MP Andrew Stunell, said: “For me this is just the start of the process - their contribution has informed my programme of work for the next year, and I want to work with them further to ensure building regulations are fit for the 21st century."

The programme of reform has also now been set out with the following actions:
  • Set up Building Regulations Part P Technical Working Party
  • Develop proposals for amending regulations and guidance
  • Prepare formal Impact Assessment
  • Publish consultation document – December 2011
  • Conduct formal three month consultation
  • Publish analysis of responses – July 2012
  • Publish amended regulations and Approved Document – October 2012
  • Bring new regulations and guidance into effect – April 2013"
 
S

Spesh

I'm in the process of going sole trader and have been weighing up the options of who to go with, all seems much of a muchness but as has been mentioned in this thread it seems that the nic seem to be the only joe public known one. I've had a good loom at napit though as a plumber friend and I may go down the property maintenance route and that would satisfy both sides. I've not looked at elecsa yet as their website appears to be broken and has been for a wee while :/
 
A

alberthot

Elecsa is your best bet... Nic are useless at best. We are with Nic but will not be staying with them.
 
S

SPARTYKUS

so much discussion about TWO of six options!

I have been with NAPIT for 4 years, have been fine, I don't care who am with just needed to be legal for domestic work, as it turns out a new one has arrived (STROMA) and they are cheapest (250). I have requested a transfer.

I don't care about courses, tech lines, etc etc. They are all middle men actually providing absolutely NOTHING just creaming electricians' money off them.

Ouch!
 
S

Spesh

Just had a read around the stroma site.. Seems to tick the boxes to get me off the ground for sure. Decent price too.
 
W

Welchyboy

Elecsa is your best bet... Nic are useless at best. We are with Nic but will not be staying with them.

Have you really had so much trouble with nic? maybe ive been lucky, so far ,they have served me quite well, i dont buy into all their certs and stickers etc though, i use easy cert, as they take the P charging you for software and then again for serial numbers too!

you have to play them at their own game!

I used to be registered with elecsa and have found they are quite good and relaxed, their assessment is a total piece of p### though!
 
N

nick182

how do the assesment's differ from elecsa to Niceic? whats involved exactly?
 
S

SPARTYKUS

One you feel like you've been done a favour, the other you finish off feeling like you've done them a favour.
 
M

MarkieSparkie

One you feel like you've been done a favour, the other you finish off feeling like you've done them a favour.
Spot on mate, that is certainly how I felt, the NIC assessor was aloof and seemed to have a bad smell under his nose.
 
S

SPARTYKUS

Never spoken to anyone that was at least polite at the Niceic. Except Tony Cable :29:
 
W

Welchyboy

i'm currently registered with elecsa under the part p scheme
i'm fully qualified,c&g electricians cert in '94,jib approved,17th ed,nvq3 (no 2391 though) blah blah
what's the best body between the two to be 'down' with
taking into account cost,support etc
what do you need to do to be an approved contractor (nic)rather than a domestic installer(nic) because you see all manner of people displaying a dom installer logo.
i'm fed up of having to explain to callers that elecsa is the same thing as niceic.
some people even ask for discounts because i'm not niceic!!!!
In reply to your original quote, i was with elecsa when part P started then switched to NIC D/I and now have recently upgraded to the NIC A/C scheme
, (which given your qualifications would not be a problem for you), i think that if you are a Professional electrician that can undertake all fields of installation work and wishes to grow his business then you should really be registered with an approved contractor scheme like NIC/Napit or ECA, as like you say every vans got an elecsa or NIC DI badge on it nowadays be they plumbers, kitchen fitters or whatever, it doesnt mean alot really.
The cost is not much more when you think about it and you wont get refused for any tenders/PIR's etc either. from a business point of view this would pay for itself every year im sure, and for me is a no-brainer!
Around 3 days after i done my A/C assessment i got a call from a builder asking me to quote for re-wiring 7x toilets and 2x kitchen areas in a local school that he was refurbing, if i hadnt upgraded from DI they would not of allowed me the job and since then i have won the PAT testing at a good price too!

But if your happy doing housebashing forever then go with elecsa!!
 
S

SPARTYKUS

In reply to your original quote, i was with elecsa when part P started then switched to NIC D/I and now have recently upgraded to the NIC A/C scheme
, (which given your qualifications would not be a problem for you), i think that if you are a Professional electrician that can undertake all fields of installation work and wishes to grow his business then you should really be registered with an approved contractor scheme like NIC/Napit or ECA, as like you say every vans got an elecsa or NIC DI badge on it nowadays be they plumbers, kitchen fitters or whatever, it doesnt mean alot really.
The cost is not much more when you think about it and you wont get refused for any tenders/PIR's etc either. from a business point of view this would pay for itself every year im sure, and for me is a no-brainer!
Around 3 days after i done my A/C assessment i got a call from a builder asking me to quote for re-wiring 7x toilets and 2x kitchen areas in a local school that he was refurbing, if i hadnt upgraded from DI they would not of allowed me the job and since then i have won the PAT testing at a good price too!

But if your happy doing housebashing forever then go with elecsa!!

Been with NAPIT 4 years and work in Police Custody suites, pubs, restaurants, offices, oh and the odd house !
 

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