Electrical competence

[Pete999]

Evening folks,

I'm in the process of starting a plumbing and heating business, for some fairly long winded and boring reasons I want to employ a couple of guys from the outset. Plumbers don't seem to bother with any sort of electrical competence, I'd quite like to stay out of jail so was wondering if anyone could advise a basic electrical short course for the very limited electrical work they are likely to do. Essentially it will be connecting a flex to a FCU, possibly swapping a shower or basic fault finding. A fair bit of it is ELV these days which is reassuring.

Cheers
Dave

ELV??? you mean LV surely

 

[Cbuk2k2]

ELV??? you mean LV surely

Nope, plenty of stuff with a boiler is 24V or less.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

Hire another E&I (Inelec) mate. Cover both bases. Instro’s have better pipe work skills then Wetpants anyways!

If I could hire one that was keen and willing to learn I wouldn’t really have a problem with that. I doubt many guys who’ve served their time would want to go back to apprentice level. It doesn’t really help that heating is 50/50 electrical and mechanical.

 

[Pete999]

Nope, plenty of stuff with a boiler is 24V or less.

Not the feed to the boiler though

 

[Cbuk2k2]

Not the feed to the boiler though

75% of the controls within a heating system are within the boiler itself. With smart controls like Hive/Nest even the external stuff is going low voltage.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

Not the feed to the boiler though

Their scope is basically limited to solenoid valves, pumps thermostats and programmers electrically. Hence I’m thinking there should be a fairly straightforward route to competence.

 

[Pete999]

75% of the controls within a heating system are within the boiler itself. With smart controls like Hive/Nest even the external stuff is going low voltage.

That's why I mentioned the input will be LV, just like you said in the above, or are you inferring the external supplies will be ELV as well as the internals?

 

[Cbuk2k2]

That's why I mentioned the input will be LV, just like you said in the above, or are you inferring the external supplies will be ELV as well as some of the internals.

A fair bit would imply some part of/the majority of us ELV. Never denied some was LV or I wouldn’t be wasting people’s tine here.

 

[Pete999]

A fair bit would imply some part of/the majority of us ELV. Never denied some was LV or I wouldn’t be wasting people’s tine here.

OK thanks for that Mate

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

If i recall correctly british gas were elecsa registered.

You could as boss do a 3 week domestic course then join niceic. They would almost certainly let you join the ac scheme as limited scope just for plumbing and heating bits. If you dont have 2391 you do a online test they offer instead.
They basically want your money

 

[Cbuk2k2]

If i recall correctly british gas were elecsa registered.

You could as boss do a 3 week domestic course then join niceic. They would almost certainly let you join the ac scheme as limited scope just for plumbing and heating bits. If you dont have 2391 you do a online test they offer instead.
They basically want your money

Problem is I’m once were up and running I’m rarely going to be working with the guys. I’m generally out of the country for about 6 months of the year with my day job. It seems a bit of a fudge for me to be responsible for their electrical work if I’m not there. Maybe have to put them through something similar. Seems nonsense really for what little electrical works involved.

 

[Pete999]

Problem is I’m once were up and running I’m rarely going to be working with the guys. I’m generally out of the country for about 6 months of the year with my day job. It seems a bit of a fudge for me to be responsible for their electrical work if I’m not there. Maybe have to put them through something similar. Seems nonsense really for what little electrical works involved.

I think you are correct, also you need to get them trained up on "safe isolation" procedures, with the appropriate PPE etc, you probably have that factored in any way.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

I think you are correct, also you need to get them trained up on "safe isolation" procedures, with the appropriate PPE etc, you probably have that factored in any way.

I think the route I've chosen is:

1) Honeywell controls training - 1 day - £45
2) NICEIC safe isolation training - 1 day - £170
3) ACS gas training
4) In house training

 

[Midwest]

I'm semi retired now. Stopped doing electrics, doing some maintenance now. This week, did a 3 day NVQ course in swimming pool management. The next day went to do a chlorine test, and couldn't remember how to do it!

If your guys aren't doing this work regularly, they'll forgot most things. As already said, get someone on the team that already has the qualification's/experience or find a sparks who'll subbie for you.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

I'm semi retired now. Stopped doing electrics, doing some maintenance now. This week, did a 3 day NVQ course in swimming pool management. The next day went to do a chlorine test, and couldn't remember how to do it!

If your guys aren't doing this work regularly, they'll forgot most things. As already said, get someone on the team that already has the qualification's/experience or find a sparks who'll subbie for you.

They will be fault finding on LV and ELV systems daily, E & I is a fair portion of heating work. Its just not practical to call an electircan to babysit them, as previously said I'm happy to pay for a spark to complete notifiable work (fused spurs, new circuits etc) but want some solution to competence which I think I've now found.

 

[oracle]

I was once asked for help by an HVAC engineer. He had designed and installed a huge air conditioning system for a shopping mall.

He described how he couldn’t get his system working although he’d spent a week checking every circuit against on his installation.

I looked at the main unit, the size of a small room, and said Okay, before we go through your drawings let’s start with your supply and work from there. This was a 16mm three phase neutral and earth and I immediately found voltages line to line and line to earth, but no neutral.

I asked him where the cable came from and he took me to a big DB in the basement where I located and the unconnected neutral. We went back to his machine and all the panel lights and meters were lit up.

He pressed the start button and it started up and ran. It was a simple fault to find and rectify but that HVAC engineer, with all his training and experience was out of his depth.

This is what the guys are saying to you, you will need someone who can assess the suitability of the installation to supply your valves, solenoids and controllers, fault-find and certify the work on completion.

 

[Cbuk2k2]

I was once asked for help by an HVAC engineer. He had designed and installed a huge air conditioning system for a shopping mall.

He described how he couldn’t get his system working although he’d spent a week checking every circuit against on his installation.

I looked at the main unit, the size of a small room, and said Okay, before we go through your drawings let’s start with your supply and work from there. This was a 16mm three phase neutral and earth and I immediately found voltages line to line and line to earth, but no neutral.

I asked him where the cable came from and he took me to a big DB in the basement where I located and the unconnected neutral. We went back to his machine and all the panel lights and meters were lit up.

He pressed the start button and it started up and ran. It was a simple fault to find and rectify but that HVAC engineer, with all his training and experience was out of his depth.

This is what the guys are saying to you, you will need someone who can assess the suitability of the installation to supply your valves, solenoids and controllers, fault-find and certify the work on completion.

I think you're rather over estimating the complexity of a domestic heating system.

I'm fairly happy I could teach your average spaniel to fault find/repair them.

I'm not exactly new to this stuff, just the fairly bizarre quagmire of legislation you domestic guys have got yourself into.

 

[oracle]

I think you're rather over estimating the complexity of a domestic heating system.

I'm fairly happy I could teach your average spaniel to fault find/repair them. I'm not exactly new to this stuff, just the fairly bizarre world quagmire of legislation you domestic guys have got yourself into.

Okay if you want an example of domestic heating, I was renting a flat in Luton when my boiler failed. Called a plumber who came, looked at it and said “Don’t know that model, pay me for the call out and I’ll go”

Showed him a set of drawings above the boiler and he looked at them and poked about a bit then said “Valve x isn’t switching on, you need an electrician “

“Lucky you, I am one, show me the valve” He did and I showed him it was getting voltage and the valve itself was faulty.

Are we seeing a pattern here yet? Perhaps he was your spaniel in question.

 

[oracle]

The reason the electrical trade is in a mess is because everyone now wants the shortest, cheapest and easiest way to do electrical work and aren’t interested in proper training

 

[Dustydazzler]

Wasn't this exactly what the domestic installer route was supposed to clear up this thou ?

It was aimed at getting plumbers and hvac guys up to speed with basic wiring etc so that they could install showers and new circuits into peoples homes without having to employ a full time electrician