EV charging points 2020

[Midwest]

I'm just interested in the technicalities of charging points, specifically with PME supplies, I know there's been a few threads on here, but I just wonder where we are with things currently. Someone posted this vid;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=807&v=ZedTmlTLH2w&feature=emb_logo


Where I see there's some concern over the forthcoming amendment. Doesn't really go into detail in the vid about the details of the amendment & cause for concern. Can anyone comment?

 

[Julie.]

I must admit I have issues with the amendment, I haven't watched the video yet, as I am due out in a few mins.

However, my issue is twofold, firstly, if the use of phase voltage is supposed to determine if a pen has failed, this just won't work in many cases, the local neutral /earth point can swing well away from zero, whilst still giving me 230v - the other two phases may be 300 and 180v or something, but my ev point wouldn't detect it - yet I could have 80 or 100v to earth.

Secondly, we take great care with extraneous conductive parts in the house, so if a local earth voltage is imported into the property via the ecp it is bonded to the pme - which is the earth at the substation so that there is no voltage difference, with this export of pme earth, we could equally find local potentials quite different to the substation earth - exactly the same as inside the property, but in this case there isn't the same bonding! So I stand next to the metal fence/washing line pole or whatever, yet the car earth is actually the earth from the substation with no bonding between them!

Especially in areas with plastic pipe services, the pme just isn't as bonded as it could be so could be quite a potential difference!

 

[westward10]

I came across one of these last week which had just been installed.

3 Phase EV Connection Unit with Built in Open PEN Detection

Built-in matt:e O-PEN technology, which allows for the connection of 1 x 63amp three phase load to the existing PME earthing facility

www.cef.co.uk

 

[Midwest]

I must admit I have issues with the amendment, I haven't watched the video yet, as I am due out in a few mins.

However, my issue is twofold, firstly, if the use of phase voltage is supposed to determine if a pen has failed, this just won't work in many cases, the local neutral /earth point can swing well away from zero, whilst still giving me 230v - the other two phases may be 300 and 180v or something, but my ev point wouldn't detect it - yet I could have 80 or 100v to earth.

Secondly, we take great care with extraneous conductive parts in the house, so if a local earth voltage is imported into the property via the ecp it is bonded to the pme - which is the earth at the substation so that there is no voltage difference, with this export of pme earth, we could equally find local potentials quite different to the substation earth - exactly the same as inside the property, but in this case there isn't the same bonding! So I stand next to the metal fence/washing line pole or whatever, yet the car earth is actually the earth from the substation with no bonding between them!

Especially in areas with plastic pipe services, the pme just isn't as bonded as it could be so could be quite a potential difference!

I’m not sure who the participants to the video are, but I think one is from one of the manufacturers.

They seem to be concerned about the touch voltage of 70V, which is stated in the new Amendment?

I’ve seen a few ev’s on driveways, seemingly plugged into socket outlets.

 

[richy3333]

efixx are not manufacturers but a collective of like minded preople who want to better the industry through open submission of information. Gary and Joe are also teachers at Tresham college. The bald headed guy is from Myenergi who make the Zappi (great bit of gear).

Owners are plugging their EV's into sockets with an adaptor usually supplied by the car manufacturer. Charging this way can take 9 -12 hours, easily. Socket outlets and plugs are designed for current of that magnitude over that period of time. We've seen 2 of these not that have burnt out.

70V has always been the touch voltage for the EV charging as it is finger tip to foot and not across the chest finger tip to finger tip - if that makes sense?!

 

[snowhead]

You'll never stop the charging by 13amp lead it's not practical, so the protection needs to be within the vehicle not the charger.

The majority of E.V buyers won't have had one before so won't have a charge point installed and will have to wait possibly up to several weeks to have one installed, using the 13amp lead in the meantime.
Even if they did have a point at home if they visit relatives or others for an overnight stay they'll most likely need to charge the E.V.
Either the location they visit will have a charge point but need it for their own E.V or won't have one.
In both cases leaving the visitor no option but to use a 13amp lead.

If the charge point is fitted with the device in the video which measures fault current on the earth wire from the Vehicle and the charge point trips, the first thing the user is going to do is plug the car in elsewhere using the 13amp lead.

 

[Midwest]

Think that’s what I’ve seen, plugged into an ordinary socket. I wonder if these people are aware of the potential danger of doing so? With ev popularity, it only makes the situation more likely to happen.

 

[snowhead]

No, they wont be aware.
If you're given a lead with a 13amp plug on it why would you think not to plug it in a 13amp socket unless there are specific very noticeable warnings against it.
Like, 13amp lead is not to be used unless the reliability of the Earth for the property has been confirmed before each use, regardless of type of installation.

I wonder if there are any figures of the additional likelyhood of issues with the added (but ultimately limited ) use of E.V verses the likelyhood of issues elsewhere in the property should a loss of Earth occour.

 

[Strima]

I think there should be a move away from fixed charging units and have the charger within the vehicle.

For standard domestic charging a connection should be through a dedicated 16 amp commando plug and a dedicated circuit for it with relevant RCD suitable for the job.

For rapid charging a the charger should be capable of accepting three phase where specific charging leads are available such as motorway services.

I'm not a fan of EVs but they're being pushed onto us as a short term fix with no real long term plan. Manufacturers need to standardise to make it easier and more accessible for all of us.

 

[Julie.]

I think there should be a move away from fixed charging units and have the charger within the vehicle.

For standard domestic charging a connection should be through a dedicated 16 amp commando plug and a dedicated circuit for it with relevant RCD suitable for the job.

For rapid charging a the charger should be capable of accepting three phase where specific charging leads are available such as motorway services.

I'm not a fan of EVs but they're being pushed onto us as a short term fix with no real long term plan. Manufacturers need to standardise to make it easier and more accessible for all of us.

The chargers are in the vehicle!

The Charge point is merely a connection - like the commando plug, but does not become live until the car is connected.
There is a little circuit in the point, it sends a signal to the car on a sensing circuit (12V square wave), once the car receives this (the duty cycle determines the rating) it then knows the maximum charging current, it changes it's resistance on this sensing circuit, the charge point detects this and then closes a contactor putting line and neutral (or 3 phase) live on the output, the car then charges using it's in-built charger knowing that the maximum draw is 32A, or 16A, or 10A from the duty cycle on the original square wave signal.


However as it is now putting live volts to a device outside, the charge point needs to provide protection - just like you would need to if there was a 32A or 16A commando socket outlet - it's this that's the issue!

 

[Midwest]

Hmmm, having watched a Sparki Nija vid and a listened to a podcast (Oct 19) from e5 Group, seems the Amendment 1 gives 4 options for ev charging so apply them in simple terms for domestic property;

1) 3 phase, unlikely
2) Local earth rod, connected to MET. Again unlikely to achieve the required resistance
3) TT the ev charger
4) This new device for single phase, where voltage between Line & neutral is monitor and disconnected if it goes above 253V or below 207V.

The forth option in the Amendment, seems to be completely handed over to the manufacturer, to make it comply.

Then there's this thing about certain ev cars, and DC currents, requiring Type B or F RCD. And by the time Amendment 1 is approved, Amendment 2 will already be in draft!

Seems like this thing is going to be constantly changing/evolving. And a digital subscription with the IET.

 

[snowhead]

The simple solution is to make all E.V Class 2.

 

[Julie.]

Actually it shouldn't be our Job! This shouldn't be in the wiring regs, it's a piece of equipment that we install/specify, just like any other piece of kit!

we don't look to the wiring regs to check and obtain the specifications for a 13A plug or socket outlet, and sit there coming up with a solution to provide shuttering when the plug is removed etc. there is a different standard, and this specifies all the technical details!, so it should be with EV points - just the same.

For us, we should just have something like "EV charge points shall be to BSEN12345678 parts 1, 2 or 3, Any charge point to part 1 shall be installed with a TT arrangement having ….. bla bla."

The whole self-contained charge point should have all it's required protection etc. built in; and just be like wiring in a cooker or similar, sure you need to provide protection to the cooker, but not beyond it!

 

[snowhead]

When, that's when not if, the grants for charge points stop and E.V's get lower into the second hand market more people are likely to just use an extension lead, potentially out of a non rcd socket, from inside a house.
Any the protection a charge point offers will then be pointless.

 

[Midwest]

Actually it shouldn't be our Job! This shouldn't be in the wiring regs, it's a piece of equipment that we install/specify, just like any other piece of kit!

we don't look to the wiring regs to check and obtain the specifications for a 13A plug or socket outlet, and sit there coming up with a solution to provide shuttering when the plug is removed etc. there is a different standard, and this specifies all the technical details!, so it should be with EV points - just the same.

For us, we should just have something like "EV charge points shall be to BSEN12345678 parts 1, 2 or 3, Any charge point to part 1 shall be installed with a TT arrangement having ….. bla bla."

The whole self-contained charge point should have all it's required protection etc. built in; and just be like wiring in a cooker or similar, sure you need to provide protection to the cooker, but not beyond it!

Thats a fair point, but the installer will be signing the certificate to say the ev install complies with bs7671. And if it does go wrong, the manufacture will just say it wasn’t installed correctly.

And when a sparks comes along at a later date, he/she will also have to make comment on this box of tricks and/or earth rod, cabling to it etc has been installed with correctly. And also whether the correct RCD has been installed, in relation to the characteristics of the particular ev vehicle.

With all these car manufacturers producing slightly different types of charging systems in their products, I don’t think there’s one ‘cap’ that’s gonna fix all. But then I’m no expert, just listening to what others more learned than me are talking about.

 

[snowhead]

And also whether the correct RCD has been installed, in relation to the characteristics of the particular ev vehicle.

That's going way beyond the realms of fixed wire testing, at best an E.V is a portable appliance.

If the RCD is specific, it may have been correct for the original car but not the current one or the next one or the visiting one.

It's just the same for testing whether the fault detection built into the charger is actually working, if it's all electronics then only the manufacturer could do that.
Fixed wiring tests would stop before the charger,same a cooker or boiler etc.

 

[Midwest]

That's going way beyond the realms of fixed wire testing, at best an E.V is a portable appliance.

If the RCD is specific, it may have been correct for the original car but not the current one or the next one or the visiting one.

It's just the same for testing whether the fault detection built into the charger is actually working, if it's all electronics then only the manufacturer could do that.
Fixed wiring tests would stop before the charger,same a cooker or boiler etc.

I don’t know, you guys do the EICR’s. But it’s mentioned in the draft, 722.531.3.101

 

[Julie.]

I don’t know, you guys do the EICR’s. But it’s mentioned in the draft, 722.531.3.101

Do you mean amendment 1 - that isn't a draft anymore, and my point isn't what is in the spec now, but what it should be.

When we sign off a design, we only cover those aspects of our design, we don't by signing off a design accept or certify the equipment manufacturer's responsibilities, when a socket outlet for example is installed we don't certify it for all the type tests etc. just that it was installed correctly and usual on-site tests.

It should be just the same with a charge point

 

[Midwest]

Do you mean amendment 1 - that isn't a draft anymore, and my point isn't what is in the spec now, but what it should be.

When we sign off a design, we only cover those aspects of our design, we don't by signing off a design accept or certify the equipment manufacturer's responsibilities, when a socket outlet for example is installed we don't certify it for all the type tests etc. just that it was installed correctly and usual on-site tests.

It should be just the same with a charge point

I not sure. Never done the EV course, but as a sole trader your installing a product that needs to comply with BS7671 and BSEN's etc, like a CU for example. You've not designed or manufactured the product, but confident its fit for purpose. Amendment 1, from what I've read seems a bit vague about where tis responsibility lies. Might be wrong, thats whey I'm curious.

 

[Julie.]

I not sure. Never done the EV course, but as a sole trader your installing a product that needs to comply with BS7671 and BSEN's etc, like a CU for example. You've not designed or manufactured the product, but confident its fit for purpose. Amendment 1, from what I've read seems a bit vague about where tis responsibility lies. Might be wrong, thats whey I'm curious.

Yeah, at the moment with so much of the design/requirement aspects in '7671 it does lean toward the installer being more responsible than the actual manufacturer !

That's why I think it shouldn't be any more than any other kit, a MCB is en 60898, providing the rating and installation is fine the distinction is clear, it's the manufacturers' responsibility beyond this. It should be the same for Charge points.

They are quite techy bits of kit (although actually all they do is present mains voltage to the vehicle - along with communications on available rating etc) - it's specialist stuff and shouldn't be up to the installer.