Failed EICR Query

[UNG]

But in principle, it's no different.

I would agree they are but the MOT is not worth the paper it is written on once you have left the vehicle testing station unlike the EICR which can come back on the person named on the cert many months later if an incident occurs
On another point a vehicle inspection doesn't have as many variables as an electrical installation has and the MOT has no limitations to be agreed prior to inspection

In a mot a certified inspector checks each aspect in turn, analysing each against an accepted well known standard that is communicated precisely to all inspectors.

That standard is still open to interpretation by the examiner and some do get it wrong and do conduct tests outside of the guidelines laid down

That should be the goal for periodic inspections.

Unfortunately the goal posts moved in the electrical industry when it was made possible to gain a 2391 qualification without any other industry qualification or any experience

It shouldn't be, a person who trained as an installer looks at an old installation, shocked to see it's not done the way they were taught, taking a dislike to it because "that's not the way they would do it" so hardly worth going through it properly because it's definitely not acceptable, or I could get a cu change here*

*replace this with whatever work the person fancies doing.

Not quite understanding what point you are trying to make here, I would agree that when doing an inspection you have to be open minded to different installation methods but you also have to assess if that meets the minimum accepted standard
All the publications like codebreakers are not helpful and IMO are there as a crutch to those who have little or no industry experience but have their 2391 which they were taught to pass from passed exam questions and their scheme provider feels the need to support their lack of knowledge and make some extra money at the same time

Obviously not everyone is like this, there are some conscientious people, but as these repeated "failed EICR" threads show, this whole subject is completely misunderstood by many people out there.

The misunderstanding IMO is all down to how the industry and the training has changed in the last 15 - 20 years a lot of the EICR issues are down to an inability to make proper observations and objectively test the installation then compare it to appropriate standards and fill in the cert properly, you only have to look at the inconsistancy of what is posted on this forum to see that

And why would it be a cost for everyone, not every garage mechanic is a mot inspector, nor should every electrician be a certified inspector - it should be a specialisation just as some electricians specialise in home bashing, some in industrial, some in fire alarm systems - each area having specific knowledge, not widely known outside of that specialisation

With any specialisation comes the creation of specialist training courses, assessments and the creation of money making assessment bodies of which you have to be a member
In a busy MOT bay it is very easy to carry out an assessment of a number of inspectors in a short period of time or even do spot checks of MOT testing stations an MOT takes no longer than an hour
So how would you do assessments or spot checks of electrical inspectors where an EICR can take as long as it takes and when they are not doing them all day everyday
A mechanic doesn't have to test and certify his work or notify it to anyone once completed but for an electrician the testing and certification and in some cases notification of his work once completed is a standard and normal procedure and a very short step away from doing an EICR

 

[UNG]

Imo hashgraph public distributed ledgers are going to change all this.

It's possible to have your tester hooked up to an immutable public ledger where people cannot do things like pretend they've done the readings or fiddle the numbers.

I'm sure there's a way to work visual inspection stuff onto there too since immutable and verified photosgraphs are part of the ledgers upcoming use cases.

The hurdle would be getting the government to agree to an overriding authority that definitely designates certain things into a category of urgency.

For example, an exposed bus bar due to lack of a blank plate being inserted = C2. Picture is taken and uploaded to ledger, and via tokenised smart contract the customer agrees to have it remedied on the spot (electrician simply puts a blank plate in).

All immutable, admittable as evidence in a court and everyone is held to account and protected.

There's lots more to it than this but this is the gist and it's coming everywhere, to every product you can think of.

Avery Dennison have actually begun to tokenise and trace products based on their own 'fingerprint' - so you can trace say a breaker back to its origin based on microscopic pictures of the breaker. If you zoom in on material far enough it has its own unique structure like a fingerprint and there are companies out there right now doing it to stop counterfeit items etc. Atma.io are doing it and one of their clients is Adidas.

It's all run on a ledger called Hedera Hashgraph and it's going to be prevalent everywhere within 5-10 years. I can see huge use cases for the electrical industry. Just a shame i don't have the money or technical know-how to implement it in a product. Whoever does will sell it to Megger and Kewtech and be rich.

How much do you expect all this to add to the cost of an EICR when you will need a new tester and pay for whatever system is deemed the de facto interface

 

[nicebutdim]

In NI all MOTs are carried out in government test centres, which removes (almost) all issues that might be experienced in GB.

Can't think of how to apply this nugget of imformation to the EICR issue, sorry.

 

[Julie.]

We appear to be getting bogged down in the details of a MOT - I was talking about the principle behind it - - achieving common standards and maintaining them.

The MOT style of control/organisation works, and is common over many more things than a MOT - take for example certifying a vessel for commercial use - known as coding - a typical fishing boat or trip rib or similar boat perhaps taking say 6, or 12 or whatever passengers around a lake, or 500m out to sea to see wildlife etc - the cost is comparable with a proper EICR (not a fly-by) , the duration is about the same, the responsibility is considerably more than an EICR, the scope is waa.....aay more than an EICR, it doesn't just cover electrics - it covers all the mechanics, hull condition, stability calculations, SOLAS requirements etc.

Yet this is achieved , but apparently "not possible/unsuitable" for the electrical installations???

 

[timhoward]

Going back to the latest post from the OP (@danieluk84 ) - did the second electrician make any comment about the consumer unit and/or RCD situation?

Regarding observation 3 - unsupported cables - for me there would have to be evidence of deterioration /damage to cables due to lack of support, or other blindingly obvious safety issues e.g. trip hazard to raise this to C2.
An EICR is often limited to visible cables and it isn't usually terribly difficult to secure visible cables, so this may not be a big deal to resolve in reality even it is a C2. It might just need a few clips need banging in!

 

[UNG]

We appear to be getting bogged down in the details of a MOT - I was talking about the principle behind it - - achieving common standards and maintaining them.

You appear to not have a full understanding of the MOT which is possibly why using it is a bad example

The MOT style of control/organisation works, and is common over many more things than a MOT - take for example certifying a vessel for commercial use - known as coding - a typical fishing boat or trip rib or similar boat perhaps taking say 6, or 12 or whatever passengers around a lake, or 500m out to sea to see wildlife etc - the cost is comparable with a proper EICR (not a fly-by) , the duration is about the same, the responsibility is considerably more than an EICR, the scope is waa.....aay more than an EICR, it doesn't just cover electrics - it covers all the mechanics, hull condition, stability calculations, SOLAS requirements etc.

With vessel coding it is usually carried out by insurance approved inspectors who are appropriately qualified and experienced in their field and the required minimum level bar is a lot higher and more onerous on the owner and can be subject to spot checks

Yet this is achieved , but apparently "not possible/unsuitable" for the electrical installations???

It is possible for the industry to achieve a decent level of EICR's but we need to move the industry back about 20 - 25 years and not dish out qualifications like confetti as these training organisations have been doing for the last 15 - 20 years. If you continually lower the bar you end up with what we have now, yes the EAS is now trying to address the problem but is it going far enough and how many more changes will need to be made to improve the level of competence to achieve a required standard.
Although the NICEIC and NAPIT along with a few other schemes have approved some of their registered companies to carry out EICR's how often do they assess this competency at company and operative level. Does anybody actually complain to these organisations about the quality of an EICR they have received from any of their registered companies and are any challenged
If we turn I&T into a specialist competence how many sub sets do we create for domestic, commercial, industrial or will it be single phase, three phase installations and then do we need endorsements for installations with for example MICC or other non standard / mainstream material types that may be still in use but no longer used in general installations

I suppose the point of failure is really UKAS who have allowed the bar to be lowered to what it is by lettin the NICEIC etc to get away with what they hae

 

[DPG]

The big thing for me is the ongoing monitoring off EICRs. A combination if spot checks, and also an online portal where people can upload rogue EICRs for investigation. People would need to be confident it was worthwhile going to the trouble of reporting stuff though - to k ow that it would be looked at rather than ignored.

Repeat offenders would be easy to spot, and a profile could be built up.

I doubt this will happen due to the obvious extra manpower it will need though.

 

[Julie.]

You appear to not have a full understanding of the MOT which is possibly why using it is a bad example

In what way do I not understand MOTs? - behind what you see is a process where common standards are published - each MOT inspector has to demonstrate experience prior to undergoing specific training for this activity - exactly what I think should be done for EICRs

With vessel coding it is usually carried out by insurance approved inspectors who are appropriately qualified and experienced in their field and the required minimum level bar is a lot higher and more onerous on the owner and can be subject to spot checks

No it has to be an approved certifying agency - there are four in the UK, Lloyds, YDSA, Mecal and IIMS; but they all work to MGN280 they are independent from the insurers. For any inspection the client or client's insurance company appoint an agency who appoint an inspector (who usually works for many of the agencies) - it is usually an experienced seafarer/surveyor who has undergone specific training.

again - exactly what I think should be done for EICRs

It really doesn't matter how your confetti was distributed, if the inspectors are chosen properly and trained to a proper and consistent standard then actually rogue/incompetent electricians will be highlighted/identified.

 

[brianmoooore]

Parts A to H, J to M, Q, R and 7 of the Building regs. are policed by the local authority's inspectors directly. Part P alone is 'sub contracted'. The local authorities should extend the skills of their inspectors to cover EICs, and with those skills in place, could be extended to cover all EICRs as well.

 

[Electrics]

How much do you expect all this to add to the cost of an EICR when you will need a new tester and pay for whatever system is deemed the de facto interface

It would literally be an app.

Hedera Hashgraph charges $0.0001 per 'transaction'. So for every 1m messages your Megger sends for example the cost would be $100. So how many times do you press the button on your Megger or Kewtech for every EICR you do? Add that total to the pictures you take and the smart contract you enter into with the customer to verify that your visual observations are correct (eg he cannot say there are wires hanging out when there aren't, in order to try to drum up unnecessary work) which could be done by both of you having the app and exchanging QR codes, and you have the total expense per EICR which obviously is footed by the customer. It would mean adding something silly like $0.001 onto your bill.

You would need a new tester yes but it's not like people don't upgrade all the time anyway, and it would clean up the industry for sure if done right. And it wouldn't need a camera. All mobiles these days have cameras and an app could simply link to the testing device.

All your readings for the circuits would be immutably stored in a database (called a public ledger) and you can then never say you didn't go there, or that you read 0.03 ohms when really you read 0.1, or that your main earth bonding needed redoing etc. It would instantly cure those times we've all seen and heard of where the readings on the sheet are blatantly wrong because they were never actually done in the first place.

This will be the future.

 

[DPG]

I can't see how you are going to get a tenant to do that. And the cost of the EICR will go up more than you say due to the time taken taking photographs of sockets, cables, etc and agreeing the details of each one with the tenant. Or the customer, assuming you can get the customer to attend. If you don't, then you would have to send him the pictures and then you could have sent him photographs from any old property.

I'm using the rented property example here because a huge chunk of EICRs will obviously be done for rentals.

 

[Electrics]

I can't see how you are going to get a tenant to do that. And the cost of the EICR will go up more than you say due to the time taken taking photographs of sockets, cables, etc and agreeing the details of each one with the tenant. Or the customer, assuming you can get the customer to attend. If you don't, then you would have to send him the pictures and then you could have sent him photographs from any old property.

I'm using the rented property example here because a huge chunk of EICRs will obviously be done for rentals.

My example in practice might not be perfect and needs a lot more thought but the principal is that there are immutable ways of stamping out a lot of the falsehoods and bickering over EICR's (and other things) using new emerging technology. Ok maybe you don't use pictures but something else. Not being funny but you're thinking in a 'boxed in' fashion. You're talking about customer not attending site when it can all be done by smartphone app. I'm not sure how long you think it takes to snap a photo on a phone, but it's not going to add any time onto a job. You can snap 100 photos of an installation in about 5 minutes. Either way, maybe there's a better way than photos but it was just an example.

Siemens are going to use this tech to control traffic lights etc in smart cities. They will use it to control self driving cars so that if there's an accident the ledger knows exactly what went on and who did what because they will constantly be submitting data to the ledger.

Look into it, it's going to be the way the world is, especially in cities in developed countries.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It would literally be an app.

Hedera Hashgraph charges $0.0001 per 'transaction'. So for every 1m messages your Megger sends for example the cost would be $100. So how many times do you press the button on your Megger or Kewtech for every EICR you do? Add that total to the pictures you take and the smart contract you enter into with the customer to verify that your visual observations are correct (eg he cannot say there are wires hanging out when there aren't, in order to try to drum up unnecessary work) which could be done by both of you having the app and exchanging QR codes, and you have the total expense per EICR which obviously is footed by the customer. It would mean adding something silly like $0.001 onto your bill.

You would need a new tester yes but it's not like people don't upgrade all the time anyway, and it would clean up the industry for sure if done right. And it wouldn't need a camera. All mobiles these days have cameras and an app could simply link to the testing device.

All your readings for the circuits would be immutably stored in a database (called a public ledger) and you can then never say you didn't go there, or that you read 0.03 ohms when really you read 0.1, or that your main earth bonding needed redoing etc. It would instantly cure those times we've all seen and heard of where the readings on the sheet are blatantly wrong because they were never actually done in the first place.

This will be the future.

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

 

[Julie.]

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

I don't see it as surveillance, but I don't think any reliance on Internet availability is of any use whatsoever, I have been in plenty of sites where there is just no signal - and complete areas where it's not available.

I don't think technology is the fix, I think it is better control and training for those that do eicrs - there are many areas of work where you are constantly kept up to date and engaged with changes - but for some people it appears like they did their training years ago, and any suggestion of learning new aspects is an insult to their skills and knowledge - it isn't!

I have friends in medical areas who constantly update their training all the time, it's seen as bettering themselves - a positive thing.

 

[Electrics]

I dislike this idea immensely. The idea of there being even more surveillance and control of me and my work, and even more reliance on technology, turns my stomach.

It's what is coming to the world, better get used to it. These huge tech companies patented medical passport software like 3 years ago.

I don't like it either but it is what it is.

 

[Electrics]

I don't see it as surveillance, but I don't think any reliance on Internet availability is of any use whatsoever, I have been in plenty of sites where there is just no signal - and complete areas where it's not available.

I don't think technology is the fix, I think it is better control and training for those that do eicrs - there are many areas of work where you are constantly kept up to date and engaged with changes - but for some people it appears like they did their training years ago, and any suggestion of learning new aspects is an insult to their skills and knowledge - it isn't!

I have friends in medical areas who constantly update their training all the time, it's seen as bettering themselves - a positive thing.

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

I'll give you an example of a Hedera use case - Everyware UK placed an app inside the freezers of the NHS, which monitors the freezer temperature so they can prove that anything inside was kept at a certain temperature, thereby proving the safety of the C*VID jab being administered.

They've sent 18m transactions to date since the jab was brought out in the UK. That's one use case. There are thousands more and they're going to become common place but average joe won't even know they're using them. Your freezer will send data to a central ledger proving it kept your food cold so you can't sue the fridge manufacturer in case of food poisoning. Your home electricity usage will be kept on ledger to prove your personal carbon footprint (check out Dovu, a company owned by Jaguar Land Rover). Your trainers will have an immutable traceability back to the person in the factory who operated the machine the sewed on the soles.

A verification app linked to a Megger etc would prevent EICR fraud the same as submitting a report to the governing bodies for verification would only it would be impossible to fake/fudge if the implementation was right and would be provable in a court of law, thereby stopping cowboys right in their tracks. You'd have to do it right or not do it at all.

The software could also be tweaked to make it so readings are automatically uploaded to the ledger on a completed report so you wouldn't need to fill anything out since the transaction itself would count as 'filling in' the data sheet.

Result is, you buy a new £1k tester but all of a sudden the EICR market opens right up because only those willing to do it properly will be able to do the work and therefore the price of them goes up. Winners all round - customer knows they're getting proper, verifiable work done, governing body is provided with immutable data to prove the job has been done properly, engineer knows he's protected from accusations of fraud/drumming up business/people claiming he never did the test etc.

Every aspect of work and life will be online in the next 5 to 10 years. Going through a traffic light will be recorded somewhere. The life cycle of your water bottle will be recorded somewhere. Everything will be 'tokenised' and ownership provable because of ledger tech.

 

[Julie.]

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

Really!

I can drive for over an hour through glencoe or along the A9 without any signal at all there are vast areas of the UK that will probably never get mobile signal nevermind data.

Also even in populated areas there are areas where there is no signal.

 

[Electrics]

Really!

I can drive for over an hour through glencoe or along the A9 without any signal at all there are vast areas of the UK that will probably never get mobile signal nevermind data.

Also even in populated areas there are areas where there is no signal.

Do you know how the proposed 5g networks work? They can literally cover every square inch of the planet if they need to.

The point is any app wouldn't need permanent connectivity the same way you don't need to fill out your sheet right there and then on site. You can jot it down and fill in the proper sheet at home. Unless you live somewhere that you literally never get a signal, and neither do any of your clients, then this isn't an argument against this sort of tech.

I'm not making this up - it (the tech, not necessarily the Megger idea) is coming, and it's coming everywhere, big time.

If you read into what is happening in the world of tech you would be absolutely astonished.

 

[Julie.]

Do you know how the proposed 5g networks work? They can literally cover every square inch of the planet if they need to.

The point is any app wouldn't need permanent connectivity the same way you don't need to fill out your sheet right there and then on site. You can jot it down and fill in the proper sheet at home. Unless you live somewhere that you literally never get a signal, and neither do any of your clients, then this isn't an argument against this sort of tech.

I'm not making this up - it (the tech, not necessarily the Megger idea) is coming, and it's coming everywhere, big time.

If you read into what is happening in the world of tech you would be absolutely astonished.

I know what can be done, but it really won't make commercial sense to cover every area.

And trying to fix this issue by just adding technology will not solve the issue, if anything it could discourage experienced people and encourage the inexperienced as they can rely on the tech.

I am all for including photos etc in reports, and the use of technology when it is an advantage, but it appears these days it is the technology that we work to "work around" in order to get the job done properly

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It wouldn't need immediate signal to be uploaded to a ledger, it would simply bulk transact them once it picked up a wifi signal again.

And anyway, once 5g becomes common this problem disappears.

I'll give you an example of a Hedera use case - Everyware UK placed an app inside the freezers of the NHS, which monitors the freezer temperature so they can prove that anything inside was kept at a certain temperature, thereby proving the safety of the C*VID jab being administered.

They've sent 18m transactions to date since the jab was brought out in the UK. That's one use case. There are thousands more and they're going to become common place but average joe won't even know they're using them. Your freezer will send data to a central ledger proving it kept your food cold so you can't sue the fridge manufacturer in case of food poisoning. Your home electricity usage will be kept on ledger to prove your personal carbon footprint (check out Dovu, a company owned by Jaguar Land Rover). Your trainers will have an immutable traceability back to the person in the factory who operated the machine the sewed on the soles.

A verification app linked to a Megger etc would prevent EICR fraud the same as submitting a report to the governing bodies for verification would only it would be impossible to fake/fudge if the implementation was right and would be provable in a court of law, thereby stopping cowboys right in their tracks. You'd have to do it right or not do it at all.

The software could also be tweaked to make it so readings are automatically uploaded to the ledger on a completed report so you wouldn't need to fill anything out since the transaction itself would count as 'filling in' the data sheet.

Result is, you buy a new £1k tester but all of a sudden the EICR market opens right up because only those willing to do it properly will be able to do the work and therefore the price of them goes up. Winners all round - customer knows they're getting proper, verifiable work done, governing body is provided with immutable data to prove the job has been done properly, engineer knows he's protected from accusations of fraud/drumming up business/people claiming he never did the test etc.

Every aspect of work and life will be online in the next 5 to 10 years. Going through a traffic light will be recorded somewhere. The life cycle of your water bottle will be recorded somewhere. Everything will be 'tokenised' and ownership provable because of ledger tech.

Those are some truly miserable thoughts.

I have a Cal-card. If I want my tester to read ~1ohm, I put the probes on the right contacts, and it will read, give-or-take, 1 ohm. I have just cheated your system.