Fire cable (pf200) used for mains.

[Craig Pickersgill]

Hi all, this is just a question to put my mind at rest and to see if I'm right. I'm not a qualified spark and I'm not the person(s) involved with the work.... OK here we go!

My workplace (large Plc) are having the staff toilets done up a bit. A hand dryer was removed from the wall and chase made for the cable that was in a conduit.

Got to work one morning (contractor working nights.) Wall had been clad over, out of the hole where dryer to be fitted a nice loop of what I'd call pyro!! (We are also having the fire alarm worked on.) obviously I immediately know the alarm won't be going there!
So why use an off cut of this to hard wire in the hand dryer?
I think the red cable is PF200? Its made up of red outer jacket, metal clad then 2x 1.5mm in a Rubery low smoke jacket and a steel earth or PC.

So is that right? I'd say no, and it should be PVC twin and earth 2.5mm.

Our fire cable runs out of a fused spur with a 13amp fuse fitted.

Photos included and any views greatly appreciated. Thank you all.

 

[westward10]

It is fine to use FP200 however the red sheath type is normally reserved for fire alarm circuits.

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

It is fine to use FP200 however the red sheath type is normally reserved for fire alarm circuits.

OK thanks, no issues with it being 1.5mm and 13amp fuse?

 

[westward10]

OK thanks, no issues with it being 1.5mm and 13amp fuse?

No it is rated above that.

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

Thanks for your knowledge, it just seemed like a lash up and a bit naughty.

 

[westward10]

Thanks for your knowledge, it just seemed like a lash up and a bit naughty.

It is highly possible they are using old fire alarm scraps.

 

[pc1966]

It is highly possible they are using old fire alarm scraps.

My thoughts as well, as FP cable far more expensive than T&E, etc.

 

[littlespark]

Why was the FP run in surface conduit when there appears to be a cavity, and should the switch be higher up to stop people turning it off or stealing the fuse?

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

It is highly possible they are using old fire alarm scraps.

Yes agreed, I was just unsure if it met the legal requirements and wire regs

 

[MJPD29]

It's a strange and expensive way to do it, but technically nothing wrong with it

 

[Lucien Nunes]

It is a higher-spec cable than twin-and-earth in almost every way.

a steel earth or PC.

It's tinned copper, better than the plain copper of T+E, and larger size (equal to L & N)

a nice loop of what I'd call pyro

Pyro (MICC) is something else entirely, with a solid copper extruded sheath and compressed powder insulation that can withstand heat up to the melting point of copper.

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

It's a strange and expensive way to do it, but technically nothing wrong with it

I can only guess the original cable got damaged or thrown away and they have used one of the many off cuts dumped everywhere by the fire alarm Install contractors. As mentioned above it just seemed wrong and wondered about its suitability in a fault situation. And if the colour made it a strict for fire systems only thing.

 

[MJPD29]

I can only guess the original cable got damaged or thrown away and they have used one of the many off cuts dumped everywhere by the fire alarm Install contractors. As mentioned above it just seemed wrong and wondered about its suitability in a fault situation. And if the colour made it a strict for fire systems only thing.

Generally red is for fire alarms but I'm not aware of anything that limits it to alarms only

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

It is a higher-spec cable than twin-and-earth in almost every way.


It's tinned copper, better than the plain copper of T+E, and larger size (equal to L & N)


Pyro (MICC) is something else entirely, with a solid copper extruded sheath and compressed powder insulation that can withstand heat up to the melting point of copper.

Ahhh cool! I did wonder about the Earth, I knew about mineral insulated copper cable and just presumed all fire alarm cable was like that (best not to finger poke fire systems lol) until I looked at this new FA install.... Plus how cool is the word pyro... Especially when teamed with technics or maniac

 

[Risteard]

Personally I wouldn't be happy with red FP200 being used for non-fire alarm installations. The colour red is specifically to designate it as fire alarm. I would much rather it be any other colour. (That said, there are other cable types, e.g. 6491B LSF singles in containment.)

A galvanised saddle might have been better than a PVC one too in order to protect against premature collapse of wiring systems in the event of a fire.

 

[Craig Pickersgill]

Personally I wouldn't be happy with red FP200 being used for non-fire alarm installations. The colour red is specifically to designate it as fire alarm. I would much rather it be any other colour. (That said, there are other cable types, e.g. 6491B LSF singles in containment.)

A galvanised saddle might have been better than a PVC one too in order to protect against premature collapse of wiring systems in the event of a fire.

That's more like my thinking. Tbh I don't know why they chased and buried one cable but left the other in a conduit down to the FCU?? (apart from its easy )

 

[pc1966]

The other white cables look like the non-fire version of similar construction, one well-known brand is Flexishield, but generically it is to BS 8436 (UK standard) and IS 273 (Republic of Ireland standard).

They have some good features, such as the aluminium foil layer that is designed to short out the supply if penetrated by a nail, etc, and so safely disconnect power and save the poor sod with the hammer from shock even for circuits without RCD protection. They are also a bit more rodent-proof than T&E cable, but Flexishield make a special cat urine flavoured version for that job if it is a big factor:

Flexishield R for protection against rodents

Flexishield R Cable with Rodent Protection

www.flexcables.co.uk

Traditionally alarms were in MICC (mineral insulated copper clad), later with a red or orange sheath for easier identification and to reduce corrosion damage under certain conditions. However, MICC is expensive (all that copper sheath!) and tricky & expensive to properly terminate so around a couple of decades ago the liked of FP cable was introduced that has enough fire survival for the job, has the foil shield safety aspect, and is much cheaper and easier to use than MICC.

Still way more expensive than T&E though!

 

[Timbo]

a couple of decades ago the liked of FP cable was introduced

I was using FP200 in the eighties.

 

[pc1966]

I was using FP200 in the eighties.

Ah, I seem to have missed a decade or two. Damn, how does that happen!?

 

[UNG]

I was using FP200 in the eighties.

I hated it then and I still hate it now, nowhere near as reliable as MICC and FP is very rarely installed properly
I remember having to find a fault on a fire alarm system around 1987 the alarm had been install a few years earlier and had started showing an earth fault that I eventually tracked down to a crushed FP cable

Traditionally alarms were in MICC (mineral insulated copper clad), later with a red or orange sheath for easier identification and to reduce corrosion damage under certain conditions. However, MICC is expensive (all that copper sheath!) and tricky & expensive to properly terminate so around a couple of decades ago the liked of FP cable was introduced that has enough fire survival for the job, has the foil shield safety aspect, and is much cheaper and easier to use than MICC.

Still way more expensive than T&E though!

It's only tricky if you never mastered it, personally I always enjoyed a big Pyro job on the smaller stuff I could do up to 8 terms an hour not quite as quick as one of my mum's friends who worked at BICC who was doing around 20 ends an hour on piece work that paid 3d per end