fire hoods in loft space,, downlight confusion!

[blueschill]

Hey guys, i got asked to check out someones lighting in their massive bathroom!!! it was huge, but anyway they had 6 normal non fire protected downlighters installed.

I got up into the loft space, two of the transformers had gone and one of the ceramics had worn out.

I even noticed on top of one downlight, their was a birds nest!!! ha ha ha i removed it, and all the insulation that was covering some of the other lights.

But as I was removing it all I wondered if the guy needs fire hoods installed?
I have looked everywhere in my books and online, and it seems to be a grey area, as far as I can understand because the ceiling area is massive and their are only 6 50mm holes in it so it is not making a massive part of the roof open to the spread of fire, plus on top it is a loft space, and they have an extraction fan I was thinking he does not need fire hoods but I am still not sure.


Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers guys

 

[Darkwood]

Our regs are more relaxed regarding fire hoods or fire rated fitting and if i recall its to do with how the building is segregated, that aside the building regs require you maintain the fire rating of the ceiling so rather than look for expensive hoods just replace with GU10 fire rated and rid all the old 12v system... this way you can have the choice of LED, CFL or Diachroic lamps for your fittings and they will be fire rated and can be easily sourced for under a tenner each and just replace any joints with MF joints if required....

 

[blueschill]

That's the thing the fella doesn't want fire hoods really, obviously he wants the cheapest option, that's why I have been looking so hard as too see if he needs the protection.

also he had a good point, once I have replaced the transformers and ceramics do I have to put the fire hoods on or fit fire rated lights? As it was not my installation?
I know that's bad standards to leave something potentially wrong but if he doesn't want to pay for it what can I do.
Do I have to fit fire rated equipment if it wasn't my installation?

 

[telectrix]

answer is no. just make sure the insulation is well away from the fittings, including the transformers.

 

[blueschill]

Yeah that's what I did when I was up there as there was insulation covering almost everything ts all layed out nice neat and insulation free

 

[kingeri]

You only need fire-rated if the space above is another residence, e.g. a flat. The hoods are more to keep the insulation back really. On a new install, I always go for fire rated these days, but if a present install, just leave plenty of space between the downlights and insulation.

Edit: In my own house I just put ceramic plant pots over the downlights, I realise you might not want to offer that option to a client though!

 

[TAZ]

The electrical safety council do a very handy leaflet on this (best practice no 5 page 9) this gives all the recommendations. Provided there is the correct fire compartmentation in place, an unprotected downlighter can be used but best practice would be to use a fire rated one as Darkwood suggests . Aico do 2 types of loft caps which i have used my self for this in two sizes. they also help with heat loss & reducing any condensation problems which could occurr. The insulation can then be laid over the cap afterwoods

 

[blueschill]

Lol I could imagine lmfao so mr blogs that's 2 elv transformers , three ceramics and six plant pots, but dont worry I will take the plants out ha ha ha,

I think the best option is remove insulation from downlight and transformer locations to a reasonable distance. And carry out a risk assessment as well and get the customer to sign.
As this is a bit of a grey area it seems and it is someone else's installation I think that is the most viable option if the customer doesn't want them.

If it was a new install by myself I'd install fire rated lights everywhere down lights are needed.

 

[markc123]

You only need fire-rated if the space above is another residence, e.g. a flat. The hoods are more to keep the insulation back really. On a new install, I always go for fire rated these days, but if a present install, just leave plenty of space between the downlights and insulation.

Edit: In my own house I just put ceramic plant pots over the downlights, I realise you might not want to offer that option to a client though!

Kingeri got it spot on me thinks. I've always gone by whether the above space is another residence, also do it if its a bedroom above. Common-sense should prevail though, you can tell by looking what insulation is present ect... as to whether you need hoods.

As darkwood said - just install fire-rated fittings if theres enough room.

 

[blueschill]

I think fire rated fittings are a great idea, just a pity you get very tight customers sometimes

 

[GT1]

Why would you insist on fitting fire rated downlights in a bathroom if the ceiling is not a fire barrier..?
The bathroom is the LEAST likely place where a fire will start..!

If your thinking is to prevent fire ingress into the loft area then you should look at the other light fittings on that floor also, if not first.!

A standard pendant light fitting still penetrates the ceiling, and fire will still penetrate through it quickly. The fire will be well into the loft above the bathroom before the intumescent strip activates on any fire-rated bathroom down lights

There's a common misconception that "fire-rated" means they don't catch/cause fires. If you cover them with insulation they are JUST as likely to cause a fire then non-fire rated lights.

No reason to use them in bathrooms if not an existing fire barrier. It's not a grey area at all. Check building regs for definition of what is and isn't a fire barrier.

 

[blueschill]

I know what fire hoods are for, and it wasn't specific to the bathroom, I was simply checking as I couldn't find any reg specifically for it.
try reading my original post again and you will see that I did think that they wasn't needed but I was just making sure, no need to flame is there.

Chill out GT1. Sheesh

 

[BrianDB9]

The other thing to consider would be air tightness - everytime you punch a hole in the property it needs sealing up to reduce air permeability and associated heat loss.
If you explain ...well ok try to explain that recessed fittings that comply with all the building regs will save money in the long run and reduce risk of the spread of fire, as well as noise transfer you may be able to add some value to your job win win Kerching !

 

[SJD]

Edit: In my own house I just put ceramic plant pots over the downlights, I realise you might not want to offer that option to a client though!

I came across a bathroom downlights professional install done with ceramic plant pots recently - actually seemed to work quite well.