FIRE RATED DOWNLIGHTS AND PLASTIC CCU - WHAT SIDE OF THE FENCE?

[NICKYNUNN]

Hi all, about to do a condition report on a grade 2 listed 4 bedroom property, the owner is moving and wants to rent it out. The consumer unit is a PLASTIC split board RCD sited in a cupboard under the only set of stairs .The board and installation is neatly installed (even the bonding cables were clearly marked!).
There are also about 40 downlights at the job, the majority of which arent fire rated.
I need to produce a solid bit of legisaltion/documentation to show the customer ( and to inform myself) if it is necessary to change the downlights for fire rated ones (I think they should be) and if it necessary to change the plastic DB to a metal one (I'm not as sure about this).
Looking online at information from electrical sites and from Landlord sites there seems to be alot of conflicting information. Other sparks I talk to give different answers.
I know what SHOULD be done regarding the downlights but I need something solid in black and white to show the client ,who isn't keen on changing them all.
Any opinions greatly appreciated , any direction towards solid documentation appreciated even more

 

[telectrix]

the plastic CU is a C3.

if the house is 1 family occupied , (no rented out flat above sort of thing), then the whole house is a single fire compartment and fire rated downlights are not required by any legislation. desirable, but not mandatory.

 

[DPG]

You can't really try and force the customer to change 40 downlights.

 

[telectrix]

i'd be more concerned if some cretin might fit the downlights with halogen bulbs.

 

[westward10]

If you are undertaking an EICR the answers to these questions should already be in your head.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I don't know what so many people get their knickers in a knot about plastic insulated consumer units, they aren't electrically dangerous. If I were undertaking considerable work at the property I might recommend it be upgraded but apart from that its a simple observation on the condition report.

Non fire rated DLs is a funny one, Drop afew down and check the overall condition. Quite often the cables above are brittle from years of heat. Likewise often the lights are situated tight against a joist which is all black and scorched. In this situation it is recommended they need repositioning. I have never had a customer refuse an upgrade on the lights if the old ones look all burned and toasty.

 

[timhoward]

I think 'll risk offending the OP by asking, are you aware of best practise guide 4? It's a helpful document if you are at an earlier stage of the never-ending journey of refining the art of EICRs.
( https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf )

Regarding downlights, I'm mainly looking for cables lying straight over them, obvious signs of heat damage, poor condition of wiring, and single insulated cables entering them. Question in my mind is "am I willing to put my name to this being safe". It's quite rare for downlights to warrant C2 if the above are all fine. If it's a HMO then a bit more to think about.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

the plastic CU is a C3.

if the house is 1 family occupied , (no rented out flat above sort of thing), then the whole house is a single fire compartment and fire rated downlights are not required by any legislation. desirable, but not mandatory.

Thank you, how would you code the non fire rated downlights?

 

[NICKYNUNN]

I think 'll risk offending the OP by asking, are you aware of best practise guide 4? It's a helpful document if you are at an earlier stage of the never-ending journey of refining the art of EICRs.
( https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf )

Regarding downlights, I'm mainly looking for cables lying straight over them, obvious signs of heat damage, poor condition of wiring, and single insulated cables entering them. Question in my mind is "am I willing to put my name to this being safe". It's quite rare for downlights to warrant C2 if the above are all fine. If it's a HMO then a bit more to think about.

Thanks,I'd really like to change all the down lights to fire rated, but unless I can show the client in a simple "you can/you can not " document then shes not gonna go for it,as it will be a big additional cost.I was wondering if the fact that this will be a privately rented property will have any baring on the coding?.
Im gonna give best practise 4 another read, I'm sure there isnt a hard clear rule.
Should/could the non fire rated downlights then be coded as a C3 ?

 

[NICKYNUNN]

If you are undertaking an EICR the answers to these questions should already be in your head.

The answers are not in my head, I haven't under taken the work yet.I'm asking for other peoples opinions?
How do you code these?

 

[NICKYNUNN]

You can't really try and force the customer to change 40 downlights.

Im not trying to force anything, what would you code the downlights as?

 

[DefyG]

Wouldn't unless evidence of thermal damage, (connector blocks burnt/melted for example)! Incorrectly fitted, incorrect lamps, surroundings burnt?

Should/could the non fire rated downlights then be coded as a C3 ?

No the fittings themselves aren't a problem if correctly installed.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

Wouldn't unless evidence of thermal damage, (connector blocks burnt/melted for example)! Incorrectly fitted, incorrect lamps, surroundings burnt?

No the fittings themselves aren't a problem if correctly installed.

Thanks

 

[NICKYNUNN]

9 out of 10 sparks Ive spoken to say C2 for non fire rated downlights and C3 for plastic board.
I'm pleased I asked on here, I appreciate all the advice.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

Just noticed NAPIT code breakers have it as a C2.
They say "no fire hoods fitted on open back downlights with room above" C2
C3 if there is no room above
??????

 

[timhoward]

As a Napit member, my considered opinion is that the book you mention is only fit for one purpose....

 

[NICKYNUNN]

As a Napit member, my considered opinion is that the book you mention is only fit for one purpose....
View attachment 89661

haha

 

[NICKYNUNN]

So apart from the respected opinions of electricians,which is appreciated, and the advice given in Napits code breakers(not respected by all), there is no bit of literature that says for definite,it simple terms that non fire rated downlights are or are not permissible when carrying out a condition report.

 

[timhoward]

As far as I know BS7671 isn't anywhere near that specific. In a nutshell the luminaire must be suitable for the location.
Have a gander at regs 422.3.1, 422.3.8 and 559.4.1
For purposes of an EICR judgement about whether it's potentially dangerous is mainly down to factors mentioned earlier.

A completely separate question is whether the ceiling needs to be fire resistant (FR), as Tel was saying earlier. If the property is divided into multiple dwellings i.e. flats then the fire rated downlight topic comes into play.
A house rented as a whole doesn't come into this category. (A house of multiple occupation has many extra requirements regarding fire safety but not fire retardant ceilings to the best of my knowledge)

 

[NICKYNUNN]

As far as I know BS7671 isn't anywhere near that specific. In a nutshell the luminaire must be suitable for the location.
Have a gander at regs 422.3.1, 422.3.8 and 559.4.1
For purposes of an EICR judgement about whether it's potentially dangerous is mainly down to factors mentioned earlier.

A completely separate question is whether the ceiling needs to be fire resistant (FR), as Tel was saying earlier. If the property is divided into multiple dwellings i.e. flats then the fire rated downlight topic comes into play.
A house rented as a whole doesn't come into this category. (A house of multiple occupation has many extra requirements regarding fire safety but not fire retardant ceilings to the best of my knowledge)

Thanks for that, I appreciate you taking the time. I will go and have a look at those Regs.