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Am hoping you can help

Following an integral garage conversion, I am after a couple of fire hoods to cover some LED ceiling spotlights.
The lights are in a plaster boarded ceiling which has a garage roof void above (the room is part of an integral garage conversion).
Lights are around 150mm dia (110mm cut out) and about 40mm high plus a small driver.

Can you advise if you know a suitable product please ? There is plenty of access above the new ceiling.

For the proposed product, the building inspector is asking for a data sheet and a copy of the fire test certificate for this item, to confirm it is suitable to prevent fire spread from outside in the loft space above to inside the building, maintaining the integrity of fire-rated ceilings, rather than the normal way it’s used due to the roof void being part of a garage.

I have tried Tenmat, antifire, envirograf and all only have certs for fire going from room below to above, not the other way around.
Am hoping someone has found a solution for this,


Thanks in advance
Andy
 
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davesparks

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Mentor
Arms
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If the roof void is accessible then you could ask building control if you could box them in with plasterboard of the same spec as the ceiling.
 
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  • #3
If the roof void is accessible then you could ask building control if you could box them in with plasterboard of the same spec as the ceiling.
Thanks Dave, makes sense, do i need to allow for any ventilation for transformers in general, the light are LED and the transformer i would say gets slightly warm at most?
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
Do you mind sharing what the result with the building inspector was? I think he was asking for certifcates for a test that Doesn't exist. Did he ask for any british standard
 
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  • #5
Do you mind sharing what the result with the building inspector was? I think he was asking for certificates for a test that Doesn't exist. Did he ask for any British standard
Hi , you are correct there are appears to be no certified items out there to cover this issue.
even fire rated lights dont cover this issue.
he has given two options, one plasterboard the front elevation completely which i would then need to put a fire hatch into, for future access if the roof leaked or anything,
Or he has said if i make a wooden box from FR MDF, adding two layers of fire lined plaster boards all fixed with stainless steel screws, then sealed with a fire protection coating, then screwed and bonded down to the ceiling with fire safe silicon he would pass this, he couldn't guarantee it being fully fire safe due to no certs but would be acceptable, as i would have made reasonable provisions to protect the room. he would then provide the cert which i think is fair enough.
A lot of work for 2 spot lights, i would suggest standard fixed lights next time!!


in c
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
May I ask you provide a link to the manufactures of these luminaires, or some pictures? Have you installed them yet? They are probably some better products you can use, we can provide some alternatives, that will be fire rated.
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
Hi , you are correct there are appears to be no certified items out there to cover this issue.
even fire rated lights dont cover this issue.
he has given two options, one plasterboard the front elevation completely which i would then need to put a fire hatch into, for future access if the roof leaked or anything,
Or he has said if i make a wooden box from FR MDF, adding two layers of fire lined plaster boards all fixed with stainless steel screws, then sealed with a fire protection coating, then screwed and bonded down to the ceiling with fire safe silicon he would pass this, he couldn't guarantee it being fully fire safe due to no certs but would be acceptable, as i would have made reasonable provisions to protect the room. he would then provide the cert which i think is fair enough.
A lot of work for 2 spot lights, i would suggest standard fixed lights next time!!

in c
Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. It still feels odd he can compell you to do extra work without the test standard to refer to. - Just making it up. I've been doing a lot of research on fire ratings, and I dont think it's well known how to interpret them. There is no fire test for lights! - Only fire tests for specific floors with the lights fitted. Were you tempted to fit surface mounted lights, which attract no fire testing criteria?
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. It still feels odd he can compell you to do extra work without the test standard to refer to. - Just making it up. I've been doing a lot of research on fire ratings, and I dont think it's well known how to interpret them. There is no fire test for lights! - Only fire tests for specific floors with the lights fitted. Were you tempted to fit surface mounted lights, which attract no fire testing criteria?
Luminaires that have a fire rating, i.e. a down light, will have a fire rating to maintain the fire rating of the ceiling, which is typically made from plasterboard. So a 12.5mm plasterboard affords a 30min rating, typically most fire rated downlights have a 90min rating. The manufacturer provides that rating.
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
This is where the miss-understanding comes from as the tests are very specific. There are many ceiling types, but the main ones tested are 30minute (1 FR plasterboard layer),
60minute (2 FR plasterboard layers), 90minute (3 FR plasterboard layers).

If a 90 minute rated luminaire is fitted to a single skin (30mm) plasterboard ceiling the rating may not be valid. It does not mean the luminaire is suitable and/or tested with a 30minute ceiling. The fire test is only relevant to the specific type of ceiling it is tested on and cannot be transferred to other ceiling specifications.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
This is where the miss-understanding comes from as the tests are very specific. There are many ceiling types, but the main ones tested are 30minute (1 FR plasterboard layer),
60minute (2 FR plasterboard layers), 90minute (3 FR plasterboard layers).

If a 90 minute rated luminaire is fitted to a single skin (30mm) plasterboard ceiling the rating may not be valid. It does not mean the luminaire is suitable and/or tested with a 30minute ceiling. The fire test is only relevant to the specific type of ceiling it is tested on and cannot be transferred to other ceiling specifications.
Can’t comment on that statement.

What I do know, is building regs are specific; if a fire rated ceiling is compromised, i.e. a hole is cut in it, then it must be returned to its original state.

So if I cut a hole in it to install a down light, the down light should have a suitable fire rating. So a 30min ceiling, have a 90min down light installed in it, will comply.
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
So if I cut a hole in it to install a down light, the down light should have a suitable fire rating. So a 30min ceiling, have a 90min down light installed in it, will comply.
I haven't found a test house that would agree with this. Sorry. They would only sign a document to say a 90minute product is suitable for a 90min ceiling. not a 90min product to a 30min ceiling. -If it hasnt been tested in that scenario.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
I haven't found a test house that would agree with this. Sorry. They would only sign a document to say a 90minute product is suitable for a 90min ceiling. not a 90min product to a 30min ceiling. -If it hasnt been tested in that scenario.
Well that’s most the houses I’ve installed down lights in stuffed.

Where are you getting all this guidance from?
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
Sorry, that's from my research. We are about to invest in fire testing some products. Investing in a 30minute ceiling test probably covers more installation types, but everyone thinks 90 minutes is better, but 3 layer ceilings are less common. Exova is one of the main UK test bodies.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
Your profile is locked, so no idea of your experience.

I’m not an expert in fire protection. If I’m correct, you’re saying, if you install a 30min fire door in a 90min fire wall, it will not give you ANY fire protection?
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
Your profile is locked, so no idea of your experience.

I’m not an expert in fire protection. If I’m correct, you’re saying, if you install a 30min fire door in a 90min fire wall, it will not give you ANY fire protection?
Not sure how I unlock my profile. Paying around £10K per ceiling type test and you get a test certificate for that type. So test the 30min ceiling and you get lights rated for 30mins. You need to test, 30, 60, and 90 to pass on the certification. I don't know who is liable if a 90minute light is fitted to a 30 minute ceiling or a 30minute light to a 90min ceiling. The test houses will just refer to the combination they tested.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
Well, as said no expert in the field. However, in the premise I work, there are 30min fire doors, fronting protective shafts. The outer walls of the shaft are 90mins. It has been designed that way, and passed BR.

I think you are misguided, no offence. If you were advising against fitting 30min luminaries in 90min ceiling, I could understand your view point.
 

ferg

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Arms
Esteemed
Without actually going to the effort of looking at a data sheet. :D

Does that mean that the 90 minute DL's we fit have been tested at 30, 60 and 90?

So as long as they are installed correctly would comply in any of the 3 scenarios?
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
I am familiar with how products are tested. But I don't know how that is interpreted by building control. I'm dont know about non ceiling light questions! I was interested in the original thread, as the inspector was asking for an unknown test. So they may have some policy or interpretation
Does that mean that the 90 minute DL's we fit have been tested at 30, 60 and 90?
Strictly speaking, and refering to the advice I have gotten from test houses. No. A 90 minute ceiling is a different construction to a 30minute ceiling. So you can't infer that a light will pass when fitted to a different type. The ceiling construction is as important as the time.
 

ferg

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Arms
Esteemed
Apologies for not being clear in my previous post.

I meant that the same fitting type had been tested in 30, 60 and 90 minute ceilings separately and that the fitting therefore was suitable for all 3 scenarios.
 

DG599

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Promo Thread Author
Apologies for not being clear in my previous post.

I meant that the same fitting type had been tested in 30, 60 and 90 minute ceilings separately and that the fitting therefore was suitable for all 3 scenarios.
Yes, then that’s definitely OK
 
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  • #22
Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. It still feels odd he can compell you to do extra work without the test standard to refer to. - Just making it up. I've been doing a lot of research on fire ratings, and I dont think it's well known how to interpret them. There is no fire test for lights! - Only fire tests for specific floors with the lights fitted. Were you tempted to fit surface mounted lights, which attract no fire testing criteria?
HI, regarding surface mounting lights, Yes it would have saved a load of hassle, hindsight eh....
guess as there are no official products out there to protect a ceiling cutout from fire above, the only way is by using suitable fire resistance materials, showing that you have done everything possible to avoid an potential issue, the amount of smoke to some from this i guess would be minimal, and with all these precautions in place it should be the last thing standing in the event of a fire.
I still cant believe these is nothing on the market for this though, or at least nothing that is certified...
 
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