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Hi all.

I’m looking at buying a PAYG tracker with ---- off option.

I need to wire the unit to live, neutral, the ignition and then to a relay which can shut off the power to the starter motor.

I have just bought a Range Rove Evoque 2013 and wondered the best way to pick up the starter motor cable. Would there and could I pick it up from the fuse box in the glove box (if it’s in that one) and cut that and connect to the relay?

I have push button start so what effect will it have when I push the button as I guess the old manual key crank system would just keep trying to turn over unsuccessfully. Will this do the same or just do nothing?

Thanks in advance.
We’ve.
 
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James

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I think this may be a bit to complex for you to undertake on your own,
Best advice is to find a good auto electrician, many are mobile and will get that sorted in an hour or 2
 

ruston

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As above , don't mess about with it. They are so complicated and fickle that any interference or alteration (especially cutting and adding circuits to existing wires) can start your worst nightmare and untold damage to the delicate electrical systems.
Bit harsh but true. :)
 
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  • #4
I am quite competent with electrics and micro electronics. Built several large projects using microprocessors, relays, solenoids, soldering, etc. I have all the tools that should be needed just wanted to confirm I am doing the right thing by fitting it in that position. I didn't pay an electrician to do any of the wiring in my house so don't really want to pay one to install a single relay if I can help it.
 

James

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I do not doubt you have done electrics in your house and possibly in vehicles.

I do wonder how you completed the testing and what paperwork you provided to building control.

Your description of connect to live neutral and ignition, tells me everything I need to know about your level of compitance regarding auto electrics.

I strongly recommend that you leave it well alone.
 

DPG

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I didn't pay an electrician to do any of the wiring in my house so don't really want to pay one to install a single relay if I can help it.
So you don't see the need to pay an electrician to do the electrical work in your house, and now you also want free advice from electricians regarding your auto electrics issue.
 
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  • #7
I was just writing it expecting people to be able to understand what I mean.

I need to connect the red wire to a constant +ve 12vDC supply, the black to the -'ve and the yellow to the switchable live ignition accessory wire. I then need to find a suitable location to place in-line a 12v 40A normally open relay which releases upon a negative connection of the circuit. Will you help me know?
 
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  • #8
So you don't see the need to pay an electrician to do the electrical work in your house, and now you also want free advice from electricians regarding your auto electrics issue.
Apologies, I thought that's what forums were for, to help people and share your knowledge. At least thats what I do with things I know about. Clearly not.
 
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  • #9
I do wonder how you completed the testing and what paperwork you provided to building control.
Nothing that I have done requires any sort of inspection, however my good friend IS an electrician and would guide me or do any bits that needed to be done by a qualified spark if it needed it.
 

DPG

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It's just the way post #4 came across. Perhaps it's just me.

I'm sure if someone comes on here who knows the answer they will tell you - there are some very helpful and very knowledgable people on here.
 

DPG

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Nothing that I have done requires any sort of inspection, however my good friend IS an electrician and would guide me or do any bits that needed to be done by a qualified spark if it needed it.
All household wiring installation work requires testing.
 
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  • #12
All household wiring installation work requires testing.
Its only things like running a fused spur, changing my lights from rose to DL, but that whole post 4 wasn't to belittle or be funny, it was just to get across that I am not someone who doesn't know what end of a soldering iron gets hot, I wanted to tell you that I know more than the average DUYer. I also used to install sound systems when I was a boy racer so I'm used to digging out cables and doing works in cars, I just wanted to confirm that what I planned on doing, was in fact the right way to do it and there wasn't an easier/better way of doing it.
 
B

Bobster

Well, the system you are planning on installing is unbelievably dated and easy to fool and override.

Honestly, if you are looking to protect your new vehicle from theft, get a decent system installed for you that links to the ECU, it'll probably reduce your insurance premium at the same time.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Most security devices on vehicles are positioned somewhere that is not easily accessible.
However with trackers, they have to be positioned where they can send and receive a signal, and often need to be accessed to change batteries or SIM cards.

Your first task, is to determine where it would be best to place the unit.
Somewhere where a thief would not easily find it, bau where you will be able to access the unit without too much hassle.
Your next task will be to check whether the position you have chosen will allow the unit to send and receive a signal.

You will need to run wiring to somewhere on the vehicle where you can obtain a switched and unswitched supply, such as the ignition switch, radio or fuse box. You will also need to run wiring to the start button , start relay or starter motor.
It may be that you can kill two bird with one stone, by connecting the switched supply and the wires to break the start circuit somewhere between the ignition switch and the start button?

Without looking at the vehicle and the unit, it’s not really possible to offer much more advice.
 

davesparks

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I am quite competent with electrics and micro electronics. Built several large projects using microprocessors, relays, solenoids, soldering, etc. I have all the tools that should be needed just wanted to confirm I am doing the right thing by fitting it in that position. I didn't pay an electrician to do any of the wiring in my house so don't really want to pay one to install a single relay if I can help it.
That's all marvellous and you can own all the tools in the world but it still won't change the fact that the electronic systems in a range rover are somewhat fragile. They are well known for throwing a fit with the slightest alteration so be careful to research the specifics of the vehicle first.
 

davesparks

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I was just writing it expecting people to be able to understand what I mean.

I need to connect the red wire to a constant +ve 12vDC supply, the black to the -'ve and the yellow to the switchable live ignition accessory wire. I then need to find a suitable location to place in-line a 12v 40A normally open relay which releases upon a negative connection of the circuit. Will you help me know?
A 40A relay in tbe stater motor cable? Are you sure that will be big enough?
 

Spoon

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Apologies, I thought that's what forums were for, to help people and share your knowledge. At least thats what I do with things I know about. Clearly not.
I know exactly what you mean mate... Silly forum... Reminds me of a conversation I had when I rang 111.
I bust my nose a few years and me and my 9 year old daughter thought it would be a great idea to make it look better. (It's a bit bent). I have a Dremel and everything.
Well I rang 111 for advice on the best way to do this and they wouldn't give it to me.... I told them similar to what you put above, I mean, whats the point in having a service that is meant to give out advice if they don't give out advice....
 

DPG

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A 40A relay in tbe stater motor cable? Are you sure that will be big enough?
It'll be the solenoid feed rather than the main supply I would imagine. Fair point though.
 

UNG

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I was just writing it expecting people to be able to understand what I mean.

I need to connect the red wire to a constant +ve 12vDC supply, the black to the -'ve and the yellow to the switchable live ignition accessory wire. I then need to find a suitable location to place in-line a 12v 40A normally open relay which releases upon a negative connection of the circuit. Will you help me know?
Good luck you make it sound so easy have you ever heard of Canbus

it was just to get across that I am not someone who doesn't know what end of a soldering iron gets hot, I wanted to tell you that I know more than the average DUYer. I also used to install sound systems when I was a boy racer so I'm used to digging out cables and doing works in cars, I just wanted to confirm that what I planned on doing, was in fact the right way to do it and there wasn't an easier/better way of doing it.
You may be better than than the average DIYer but in the last 10 - 15 years cars have become very complicated electrically, and most parts are controlled across the canbus system which in some cases is fibre optic and not copper
Where the canbus is copper breaking into the canbus can cause quite major problems if done incorrectly
Also to complicate things further most of the recent Land Rovers I have worked on have 2 canbus systems

Like it or not what you are trying to do really is a specialist job unless you like the risk of possibly ending up with a large paperweight is it goes wrong
 

pirate

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If you can run a Range Rover you can afford to pay an expert for this work.
Car electronics are far more complicated than some people think, and while i fully accept that you may be competent in some fields, these systems are horrendous, and desigbed to thwart the DIY brigade. It'll cost you less than a tank of fuel...and you will have some redress if it doesn't work.
 
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  • #21
I get what you're saying, but am I wrong in saying that there should be a wire (potentially a 12v supply) going from somewhere like the fuse box or ignition that then that switches live when the ignition button is pressed and goes ? Does this simplified example undtrue now?
 

DPG

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I get what you're saying, but am I wrong in saying that there should be a wire (potentially a 12v supply) going from somewhere like the fuse box or ignition that then that switches live when the ignition button is pressed and goes ? Does this simplified example undtrue now?
As people have said above, things aren't usually that simple now. There may be a simple 12V line you could break into, but I certainly wouldn't risk it, and I've dabbled quite a lot with auto electrics over the years.
 

UNG

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Ok there will be a input or output probably from or to a Can Controller that operates the ignition / starter. If you are that pigheaded that you want to carry on doing it against the advice given, then your starting point would be to get hold of a wiring diagram

I'm assuming from the "push button start" comment your vehicle has keyless entry and or ignition if so I would be more concerned in securing the OBD port to prevent thieves being able to program a new key / fob

You would be more likely to get the info your after on babyRR.com - The Range Rover Evoque Forum - http://babyrr.com/forum/ this is a forum that is dedicated to the evoque if you can't get your answer there the other forums in this Land Rover group have some very knowledgeable guys so you could also try Disco4.com or fullfatrr.com
 

ruston

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Just to add , if you just upset the function of just one sensor, depending on it's function could have a knock on effect of the control system of it's interdependent process. At best , putting your vehicle into limp mode.
At worst a complete progressive shut down of the canbus system.
An extreme; on a car like yours there are sophisticated steering and braking controls that are interconnected, and the equipment you have will be of no use to you if you upset this function.
Thousands of pounds worth of diagnostic equipment is required to work on vehicles like this , some of it only available to the manufacturer.
The regulation is that vehicles have to have an OBD port , but manufacturers do not have to furnish full information . Dealerships usually will only have this equipment , and that is a very expensive visit.
Take the advice and spend a few quid , just in case. :)
 

telectrix

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to quote UNG...

Also to complicate things further most of the recent Land Rovers I have worked on have 2 canbus systems

simple... 1 for when it works, and 1 for when it won't go.
 
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  • #26
My theory on this (and I do understand that things would have advanced drastically since the day of my installs when I was younger) but my theory was if I put the relay on the same line as the fuse to the starter motor... then that line surely has been designed to accept that it may be switched off in case the fuse fails. You then replace the fuse and all works again (after diagnosing why it blew obviously but say it was a random surge and all ok).

(genuine question -->) How is putting a relay on that very same wire any different to the fuse being blown and being replaced? If a fuse blows, it don't (usually) mess up the whole CAN does it?
 
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  • #27
Just to add , if you just upset the function of just one sensor, depending on it's function could have a knock on effect of the control system of it's interdependent process. At best , putting your vehicle into limp mode.
At worst a complete progressive shut down of the canbus system.
An extreme; on a car like yours there are sophisticated steering and braking controls that are interconnected, and the equipment you have will be of no use to you if you upset this function.
Thousands of pounds worth of diagnostic equipment is required to work on vehicles like this , some of it only available to the manufacturer.
The regulation is that vehicles have to have an OBD port , but manufacturers do not have to furnish full information . Dealerships usually will only have this equipment , and that is a very expensive visit.
Take the advice and spend a few quid , just in case. :)
I don't understand why it would be messing any sensors up, I would only be installing a relay inline with the starter motor power wire. ??
 
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  • #28
Let me word it differently. If I go outside now and take the starter motor fuse out from under the bonnet and try and start the car, is the whole car going to go into melt down? (another genuine Q before I go and try it. :rolleyes:)
 

DPG

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Let me word it differently. If I go outside now and take the starter motor fuse out from under the bonnet and try and start the car, is the whole car going to go into melt down? (another genuine Q before I go and try it. :rolleyes:)
Is there a fuse purely for the starter motor?

I personally would use the advice given previously and try the range rover forum. Much more chance of getting an answer on there.

Do let us know - would be interesting to see if it is do-able or not.
 
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  • #31
Is there a fuse purely for the starter motor?
Yeah. Under the bonnet. Thats why I'm thinking it should be as easy and chopping into that positive wire and putting the relay there as it shouldn't mess with anything.

Ok I'll try those, but just thought they would be mainly owners rather than tech experts.
 

DPG

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Yeah. Under the bonnet. Thats why I'm thinking it should be as easy and chopping into that positive wire and putting the relay there as it shouldn't mess with anything.

Ok I'll try those, but just thought they would be mainly owners rather than tech experts.
A few years ago I'd have just given it a try, but I'd be more cautious these days. You'll find a lot of technical info on some of the car forums - give them a try.

Be interested to know the outcome.
 
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  • #33
I'm assuming from the "push button start" comment your vehicle has keyless entry and or ignition if so I would be more concerned in securing the OBD port to prevent thieves being able to program a new key / fob
Yeah it is. I couldn't see the ODB when I looked briefly but will keep going. Thats why I want this start motor relay cut out because then even if they program a new key, it won't start because I can disable it independently from the cars computers.
 

DPG

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It will definitely have an ODB port. Almost certainly under the dashboard near the steering wheel I would have thought.
 

UNG

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Yeah it is. I couldn't see the ODB when I looked briefly but will keep going. Thats why I want this start motor relay cut out because then even if they program a new key, it won't start because I can disable it independently from the cars computers.
Does this vehicle have the stop / start function when stopped in traffic
 
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  • #36
Does this vehicle have the stop / start function when stopped in traffic
No it don't. Which I think would have been better because it meant that if it got stolen, the first time it stopped it wouldn't turn back on again
 
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  • #37
What I'm thinking now is connecting the relay to the start button. The button has 4 wires (from what I saw on the web) Of which I am assuming are:
1. +'ve for the internal LED
2. -'ve for the internal LED
3. +'ve waiting to be used to send signal
4. the switched live that gets pulsed when the button is pushed.

Wire 4 only has two states, on and off so having a relay in there which is turned off is no different to the button not being pushed. It will just block the current/signal to the computer telling it to start the engine.

Thoughts?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #38
What I'm thinking now is connecting the relay to the start button. The button has 4 wires (from what I saw on the web) Of which I am assuming are:
1. +'ve for the internal LED
2. -'ve for the internal LED
3. +'ve waiting to be used to send signal
4. the switched live that gets pulsed when the button is pushed.

Wire 4 only has two states, on and off so having a relay in there which is turned off is no different to the button not being pushed. It will just block the current/signal to the computer telling it to start the engine.

Thoughts?
Nope. That’s wrong. I’ve revised my thinking.
1. 12v +
2. GND
3. ACC line
4. Starter line
 

UNG

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No it don't. Which I think would have been better because it meant that if it got stolen, the first time it stopped it wouldn't turn back on again
This demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is of vehicles using this technology, until you manually stop the engine it remains active
 
D

Deleted member 26818

This demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is of vehicles using this technology, until you manually stop the engine it remains active
I don’t know what “remains active” is supposed to mean, or what effect it would have.
What I do know, is you need to tone it down.
The OP has asked for advice.
If you don’t want to give any, then don’t.
There’s no need to be insulting.
 
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  • #41
This demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is of vehicles using this technology, until you manually stop the engine it remains active
So you’re telling me that if I connect the relay in front of the starter motor, someone steals it and the tracker notifies me, I press the button to throw the relay cutting power to the start motor, the engine won’t cut out immediately (because that’s illegal) but the next time they stop the car and the engine stops with it, the starter motor isn’t used to restart the engine? Is that what you’re saying? The starter motor is ONLY used when you first push the button to start the engine?
 
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  • #42
I don’t know what “remains active” is supposed to mean, or what effect it would have.
What I do know, is you need to tone it down.
The OP has asked for advice.
If you don’t want to give any, then don’t.
There’s no need to be insulting.
Thank you spinlondon. I get fed up with these forums sometimes. Every forum has people like this. Don’t actually want to help anyone, just ridicule them.
 

UNG

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I don’t know what “remains active” is supposed to mean, or what effect it would have.
What I do know, is you need to tone it down.
The OP has asked for advice.
If you don’t want to give any, then don’t.
There’s no need to be insulting.
Sounds like you have jumped into a thread without reading through it

I think from some of your replies in other threads you need to take some of your own advice

So you’re telling me that if I connect the relay in front of the starter motor, someone steals it and the tracker notifies me, I press the button to throw the relay cutting power to the start motor, the engine won’t cut out immediately (because that’s illegal) but the next time they stop the car and the engine stops with it, the starter motor isn’t used to restart the engine? Is that what you’re saying? The starter motor is ONLY used when you first push the button to start the engine?
The stop start system once the engine is started is operated from the ECU not the button on the dash until the button is pressed to stop the engine and it is then deactivated

You are making an assumption the the start button has a direct connection to the starter motor this is not a latching button

Thank you spinlondon. I get fed up with these forums sometimes. Every forum has people like this. Don’t actually want to help anyone, just ridicule them.
Clearly the advice I've offered does not meet your expectations or has been misinterpreted, I don't know your level of competence or what tooling and test equipment you have available to you, what I do know is they are complex vehicles that need a different approach to the one your have.
If you are considering continuing with this mod and "brick the vehicle" it will turn a cheap mod into a very expensive *****
Trying to run a modern Land Rover on a shoestring budget isn't an easy thing to do and most of the people I know doing it have access to at least their own diagnostic equipment
On that note I have taken your advice, you have been assigned to room 101 along with another contributor to this thread
 
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  • #44
Clearly the advice I've offered does not meet your expectations or has been misinterpreted, I don't know your level of competence or what tooling and test equipment you have available to you, what I do know is they are complex vehicles that need a different approach to the one your have.
If you are considering continuing with this mod and "brick the vehicle" it will turn a cheap mod into a very expensive *****
Trying to run a modern Land Rover on a shoestring budget isn't an easy thing to do and most of the people I know doing it have access to at least their own diagnostic equipment
On that note I have taken your advice, you have been assigned to room 101 along with another contributor to this thread
Ironically I think our ‘wires have been crossed’ (don’t trip over that pun)

I was talking about if I was going to put it in front of the starter motor as obviously the starter motor will turn every time. Yes I agree that the button won’t have the same effect.

Other than the belittling yes your contributions have been some what helpful. I know these are complex machines but what I am looking to do is not. I don’t intend to intercept a data line. From my understanding of it is that when you push the button it sends an electrical signal to the computer telling it to start. If I close the relay it was stop that signal from being able to get to the computer. Which is exactly the same as just not pushing the button. I can’t understand how this is so complex and would damage anything. It’s either sending pulse voltage or not.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but fitting it this way, can you explain how this could be damaging to anything and what could go wrong? (Assuming I’ve metered and found the right cable) I can’t see that putting a closed relay is any different to not pushing the button.
With the relay closed if a thief pressed the button that signal would simply just not reach the computer, same as before he pressed the button. No?
 
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  • #45
I don't know your level of competence or what tooling and test equipment you have available to you,
I have a multimeter, soldering iron and a can-do attitude. Is that enough?
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Ironically I think our ‘wires have been crossed’ (don’t trip over that pun)

I was talking about if I was going to put it in front of the starter motor as obviously the starter motor will turn every time. Yes I agree that the button won’t have the same effect.

Other than the belittling yes your contributions have been some what helpful. I know these are complex machines but what I am looking to do is not. I don’t intend to intercept a data line. From my understanding of it is that when you push the button it sends an electrical signal to the computer telling it to start. If I close the relay it was stop that signal from being able to get to the computer. Which is exactly the same as just not pushing the button. I can’t understand how this is so complex and would damage anything. It’s either sending pulse voltage or not.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but fitting it this way, can you explain how this could be damaging to anything and what could go wrong? (Assuming I’ve metered and found the right cable) I can’t see that putting a closed relay is any different to not pushing the button.
With the relay closed if a thief pressed the button that signal would simply just not reach the computer, same as before he pressed the button. No?
A problem with that scenario, is you don’t know what the stop?start button does.
It may well be that the button just sends a signal to the ECU, and the ECU then decides what action to take.
If the engine is not running, the ECU starts the engine.
If the engine is running, the ECU stops the engine.
Disabling the start/stop button may mean the ECU never decides to stop the engine.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #47
A problem with that scenario, is you don’t know what the stop?start button does.
It may well be that the button just sends a signal to the ECU, and the ECU then decides what action to take.
If the engine is not running, the ECU starts the engine.
If the engine is running, the ECU stops the engine.
Disabling the start/stop button may mean the ECU never decides to stop the engine.
Amazing!! Exactly what I wanted from a reply post. (not what I wanted to hear but none the less, thank you) Informative and pointed out something I weren't thinking of. Thank you.

Yes you are right. It is a dual purpose button so there will be some coding deciding what to do when it's pushed such as an if/and/or formula and so you're spot on, severing the link will mean it also won't turn off.

So the start/stop button is a no go.
 

DPG

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I admire your tenacity. At the end of the day it's up to you what you decide to do, but I think you know in your own mind there is an element of risk to say the least.
 
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  • #49
Well I’ve just had a look and there is no way of getting beneath the fuse box which is where I thought would be the best and easiest way to identify the right wire to put it. So don’t think starter motor is a go.
 

telectrix

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it's made by land rover, if it gets nicked, it won't get far before it dies. check AA and RAC websites.
 

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