Discuss Fluorescent lighting troubleshooting guide in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

marconi

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i just rip out the ballast/s and replace tubes with LEDs.
 
Note however that it an American guide, and some of the types of fitting and lamp referred to are different to UK types. Fluo fittings on 110-120V also sometimes exhibit different behaviours to those on 230V.
 
i just rip out the ballast/s and replace tubes with LEDs.
I agree, LED replacements are fantastic with instant 'switch-times' and great efficiency, also not effected by cold weather which can cause traditional fluorescents a delay when switched on.

I'll give answers in the long and short, quite literally:

Short:
- The starter may not be working, needs replacing.
- The lamp it's-self may bot be working, needs replacing. (Usually a darkened tube will show this, unless cracked).
- Dimmer switches don't work on fluorescent lamps, so don't use them.

Long:
Traditional fluorescent lamps consist of a tube which contains a mercury-based gas. The circuit starts with a 'choke'/'ballast' (basically a large coil of wire) which serves many functions which include:- current limiting, stepping-up voltage, etc. They then have a 'starter' which basically uses a bi-metallic switch and begins closed-circuit allowing larger currents (albeit limited by the choke) to heat-up the electrodes and also the gas inside the tube, resulting in ionisation and therefore a lower impedance between electrodes. The bi-metallic strip contained within the starter will now be at a higher temperature due to the current flowing through it, resulting in the two dissimilar metals which make up the bi-metallic switch to expand at different rates, causing it to bend and therefore break-contact (go open-circuit) which results in the electrons taking the new path of least resistance which is through the ionised gas between electrodes (through the tube). The electrons passing through the tube release photons (albeit not yet viable / UV) which collide with the phosphorus coating on the inside of the tube, producing visible light.
By understanding this process, there are several possible explanations for the flickering / strobe effect:

- The starter isn't working properly, most likely the coil within it to maintain temperature has gone open-circuit, resulting in the bi-metallic switch opening, then cooling quickly, then closing, then heating, then opining... and repeating. The starter often has a small coil between the contacts which even when 'open-circuit' allows enough current to build in order to produce heat, in order to maintain the temperature of the bi-metallic switch so that it doesn't cool and therefore change back to closed-circuit.

- The lamp it's-self (tube) isn't working properly, potentially due to a loss of gas. When the gas is ionised, it passes current for a short period of time while sufficiently heated, before cooling where ionisation is lost and the current-flow stops; the starter (now passing no current) cools until closed-circuit, then heating the gas resulting in ionisation... repeating in a flickering / strobe effect.

- Dimmer switches use an auto-transformer to vary the voltage to the lamp. While this is fine for some other types of lamps, florescents cannot be dimmed. This is because using basic Ohm's law, a reduction in voltage will result in a lower power-consumption naturally (Watts). The power consumption will directly effect the heating of the starter, and by 'dimming the lamp' (reducing the voltage) the starter will slowly-warm, then quickly cool, then slowly-warm, quickly-cool, continuously; resulting in a open-circuit, closed-circuit, open-circuit, closed circuit, etc. This will be seen as a strobe / flickering effect.
 
Normal starters made in the last 50 years do not contain a heating coil. They are glow starters where the bimetallic contacts form the electrodes of a small neon lamp that strikes at a voltage below mains voltage but above the running voltage of the tube. The starter strikes first in series with the tube heaters and ballast; the glow discharge heats its electrodes which bend together and touch. This completes a metallic circuit through the tube's heaters, preheating them ready for the tube to strike, and extinguishing the glow in the starter. As the electrodes cool, they separate, interrrupting the heater current, causing a voltage impulse from the ballast to strike the tube. The voltage between the tube ends is now too low for the starter to strike and it remains open-circuit.

Therefore, contrary to the explanation above, flickering / flashing often indicates that the tube is faulty and the starter cannot strike it no matter how much heating it gets. When the starter fails the flickering stops, often when its electrodes weld together, leaving the tube heaters alight. Since a bad tube overworks the starter and a bad starter cooks the tube heaters, always replace them together even if one seems to be working.

Dimmer switches don't use autotransformers - they use phase-angle control. There are many reasons why a regular dimmer will not dim a regular fluorescent fitting, although in fact a specially modified fitting can be dimmed.
 
DITTO !
if a new tube and starter don't fix it ?
Its usually cheaper to replace the whole fitting
rather than replace a ballast.
some people still like/prefer floro's
usually old and set in ways.
 
Dimmer switches don't use autotransformers - they use phase-angle control.
It's true that this could well be the case. Newer dimmer switches use phase-angle control, however there are many older dimmers installed use auto-transformers so it's best to check.
 
Have you ever seen an ordinary wall-mounted dimmer that uses a transformer? I haven't, and I've been collecting and studying electrical accessories for 30 years, so if you have any info or pics I would be very grateful! Without exception, all the stand-alone dimmers I've seen from the last 50 years have been solid-state phase-angle controls. The first used an SCR inside a bridge rectifier, then they moved to triacs, now IGBTs.

In the museum collection I have resistance units from the 1920s, phase-angle units from the 1960s (including some for fluorescents), and I do have some variable transformer dimmers but they are the size of a bucket, weigh 20kg and are for film lighting.
 
It's true that this could well be the case. Newer dimmer switches use phase-angle control, however there are many older dimmers installed use auto-transformers so it's best to check.

Can't believe a tranformer based dimmer could be made small enough (and run cool enough) to fit into a domestic back box.
 
Have you ever seen an ordinary wall-mounted dimmer that uses a transformer? I haven't, and I've been collecting and studying electrical accessories for 30 years, so if you have any info or pics I would be very grateful! Without exception, all the stand-alone dimmers I've seen from the last 50 years have been solid-state phase-angle controls. The first used an SCR inside a bridge rectifier, then they moved to triacs, now IGBTs.
Can't believe a tranformer based dimmer could be made small enough (and run cool enough) to fit into a domestic back box.
I'd like to be upfront and honest, I believe I have made a mistake (a very silly mistake) with regards to my previous comments about dimmer switches which use auto-transformers. While this is embarrassing, I'd like to share my thoughts so others may learn from my mistakes.

What I Thought
Before qualifying as an electrician (or even having much knowledge at all) I used to live in a house with a relatively old wiring system which included dimmer-switches on most of the lighting circuits. I noticed that the dimmers emitted a 'buzzing' sound, especially when dimmed low. We later had work done to the property, including an extension and a full re-wire, so I thought I'd ask the electrician what the 'buzzing' sound was and he explained it was because of a transformer varying the voltage.
Later in life when I studied to become an electrician, I mentioned this story to one of the tutors, and they said that while modern transformers use triacs etc; old dimmers may have used auto-transformers.

What I've Learned
Upon further investigation, I realised that almost all common dimmers use a TRIAC to create a leading-edge, or trailing-edge. There is a little truth in my stupidity though, auto-transformer dimmers where used in theatrical lighting, but nothing found for domestic use. Importantly, dimmers which use TRIACs can emit 'buzzing' sounds, while auto-transformers are relatively quieter in comparison.

I'd like to apologise for my mistake, and specifically to DPG and Lucien Nunes for being naive in my response. But I've also learned a lot from this conversation and by sharing it, hopefully no one will do the same. But I'd also like to say thank you, for highlighting this for me; I try to remain humble and I'm always keen to learn more.
 
No need to apologise I2C. I'd like to meet anybody who has never misunderstood something at some point! I'm sure we all have.
 
The buzzing in a triac dimmer comes from the suppression choke that is there to limit the risetime of the switching edge. The winding and core vibrate in sympathy with the switching; that's why the buzz is usually loudest mid-travel and quiet at the ends when the switching is taking place near the zero-crossing.

Note that triac dimmers are always leading-edge. The triac fires at the desired point in the half-cycle and remains in conduction until the zero-crossing. Trailing-edge dimmers require a transistor, e.g. MOSFET or IGBT, that can be turned OFF by its gate, while a thyristor/triac can only be turned ON by its gate.

BTW I totally agree, I am always amazed by new and interesting things that surface almost every day. Even after studying the history of electrical devices for decades there's always more to learn.
 
Dummmmmmb - the sound of a large transformer being switched on at the wrong point of the mains cycle.
 

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