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Bul

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Does anyone have knowledge on how the Lifetime cost of gas and electric compare in a domestic application. Almost by default gas central heating is installed assuming that it’s cheaper option.
 

Megawatt

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Does anyone have knowledge on how the Lifetime cost of gas and electric compare in a domestic application. Almost by default gas central heating is installed assuming that it’s cheaper option.
My understanding is that natural gas is on the rise and if I was you I would go electric it’s fairly cheap in summer but in the winter it gets a little bit higher cost
 

Spoon

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Go gas. It's cheaper.
 

telectrix

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get a wood burner. scrap wood and chipboard ( Ikea wardrobes etc.) cheap as chips.
 

Paignton pete

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Over the rainbow
Good question?

Yes gas is cheaper now.

But for how long?

My understanding is that natural gas is on the rise and if I was you I would go electric it’s fairly cheap in summer but in the winter it gets a little bit higher cost
Most British power stations are gas. So the cost of electric is always proportional to the cost of gas. If gas goes up electric goes up.
It costs more to get electric power from gas as the heat losses and losses on transportation of electric in to your house are greater than the losses from you condense boiler which is 99% efficient heat transfer.

However this may and will change as more wind / tidal/ solar power is harvested.
And gas becomes more obsolete.

We’ve recently reached the 50% target of renewable (or so called free) power in the UK.
I have to say I am very sceptical of those figures as I believe they have been massaged a bit or sexed up if you like.

Renewable electric is not free it’s actually more expensive than gas powered electric.
But the cost to the environment..... another debate.


I like where we are going with reviewable even though I’m a bit sceptical as to some of the claims, but as technology improves we will be able to move away from gas al together.

I’m seriously considering going all electric when my combi dies.
Solar panels and air source heat pumps and battery back up.
 

telectrix

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i'm i the process of buiding a 12ft. radius driver wheel to turn a generator. ( similar to a water wheel.) unfortunately we have no river close by, and I'm stuck on the calculation of how many hamsters i need and what the food costs will be.
 

Andy5678

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Scotland
You could fit a gas boiler and supply it with 10mm cable from CU so the option is there to switch to electric at a later date.

Or install both and have the best of both worlds
 

Spoon

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i'm i the process of buiding a 12ft. radius driver wheel to turn a generator. ( similar to a water wheel.) unfortunately we have no river close by, and I'm stuck on the calculation of how many hamsters i need and what the food costs will be.
If you can get the hamsters to be bitten by a radioactive spider, then you only need 4. They also don't need feeding.
 
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Archy Styrigg

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That’s ecology unsound, they’re gonna be banned soon too :)
Question, do I get rid of my woodburner, which I feed free renewable wood (pallets), or do I install electric heating @15p/kWh, which also contributes to global warming? I bet it's the energy companies lobbying to get woodburners banned.
 

Midwest

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Question, do I get rid of my woodburner, which I feed free renewable wood (pallets), or do I install electric heating @15p/kWh, which also contributes to global warming? I bet it's the energy companies lobbying to get woodburners banned.
I had one in my old place, can’t have it in the new pad. We enjoyed it, although never had ‘free’ wood. Used to buy renewable source logs, cost about £160 per winter. But never had it burning every night. Don’t know if it really reduced on our gas bills, but it certainly made the downstairs warmer.

That’s the plus side. I don’t think you can argue about it’s particulate polluting effect. I know some of the latest ones are quite good, but just imagine what it would be like, if everyone had one.

Guy round the corner used to get tanalised wood off cuts for free and burn that!
 
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Bul

Active EF Member
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I’m thinking of the lifetime cost gas central heating and electric heating. Boiler servicing adds to the lifetime costs. If you’re boiler system failed or needs upgrading would you consider electric heating as more cost effective option?
If it’s a newbuild would it be more cost effective over 25 years to go electric?
 

Midwest

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I’m thinking of the lifetime cost gas central heating and electric heating. Boiler servicing adds to the lifetime costs. If you’re boiler system failed or needs upgrading would you consider electric heating as more cost effective option?
If it’s a newbuild would it be more cost effective over 25 years to go electric?
In my old pad of 30 years, we had two gas boilers. I feel a strange feeling of deja vu here.
 

davesparks

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It depends on the system, if you're comparing a gas boiler to an electric boiler I think the gas boiler will always win.
If you're comparing a gas boiler to other forms of electric heating it may be a different story.
Also the method of heat delivery (radiators/wet underfloor) and the type of control will have a bearing on the efficiency and running cost of the system as a whole.
 

pirate

Regular EF Member
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Glasgow
Imagine you had a bare shell of a house...
do you plumb in a combi, with gas pipes, water pipes, radiators etc...or do you make sure it is well insulated (fraction of the cost of the above) and install efficient electric radiators?
If the electricity fails, neither will work. However, if you have efficient electric radiators, the cost of keeping your house warm will be lower, over the 15 years lifetime of the gas boiler (assumed). Hot water is another thing altogether.
If you live in a rural location where woodburners are the thing, and you have a ready supply of cheap or free wood, then you are in a win situation, and the extra pollution is outweighed by the pollution caused by producing your energy from other means...and don't even think about telling me a giant wind-turbine is cheap to produce, because it isn't, and it involves smelting to get the aluminium, mining for the copper etc etc
My sister has her own small hydro plant, so electricity is free (it took only 7 years to recover the capital outlay) and she is fortunate in owning a few hundred hectares of woodland, so her woodburner is supplied from fallen timber, free of charge. It is all about looking at options, and trying to get off-grid at every opportunity. No chance for most of us in suburbia, but let's be happy for those who get energy for nothing, money for nothing...and chicks for free!
 

static zap

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west midlands
Chicks to lower winter heating bill , now there's an idea.
(Why am I imagining her with chain saw !)
A well insulated building needs wiring carefully !
 
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Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
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978
Location
Over the rainbow
Efficient electric radiators. No such thing.

It’s a subject I keep harping on about.

1 kilowatt of electric will creat 1 kilowatt of heat. End of.

There are salesmen who will try to convince you that there rad is the most efficient.

It’s all nonsense. Spent £50 or £500 it will still produce the same heat with the same electric.
 

pirate

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Glasgow
I don't dispute that, but there are electric rads that are less efficient than that. Just saying...
 

static zap

Regular EF Member
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west midlands
Spent £50 or £500 it will still produce the same heat with the same electric.
Has anyone graphed storage heaters , new /old
and ,how big they would really need to be to be well insulated to retain heat till it's needed.
(Thinking like a central air solution-all eggs in a well designed basket)
High temperatures + Poor maintenance = Back to tumble drier risks ..
(Snoop cam says you need a service -or you house insurance will be invalid).....
( Wacky ideas for the future )
 

SparkyHarry

EF Member
Messages
9
Location
Sheffield
Personally I prefer gas heaters to storage heaters.
Gas from the mains is about 3 % cheaper than electric heaters. There are certain government incentives which make certain heating systems more affordable and therefore more popular. I think heat pumps are starting to become popular.
 

pirate

Regular EF Member
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2,108
Location
Glasgow
As you may all know, when carrying out an EPC, if you haven't got mains gas, you automatically get a 3 star rating. Mains gas is the ONLY way to go, apparently...

Aye,,,right!
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
Personally I prefer gas heaters to storage heaters.
Gas from the mains is about 3 % cheaper than electric heaters. There are certain government incentives which make certain heating systems more affordable and therefore more popular. I think heat pumps are starting to become popular.
Hi @SparkyHarry, was that a miss type. Should it have been 30 % cheaper or 3 times cheaper maybe.

Either way I agree gas is cheaper than electric. Unless it’s the off peak electric tariff storage heaters, which are plain rubbish.
 

pirate

Regular EF Member
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2,108
Location
Glasgow
Perhaps I am getting confused here, between comments on electric storage heaters and electric radiators. I have a couple of 40 year old storage heaters. They are not easy to control, and you can't just switch them on and off at will, obviously, as they are "off-peak" or whatever it's called nowadays. I feel that these are not so "efficient", whilst accepting what Paignton Pete and davesparks say.These are in the hall and living room. The other rooms have plug-in electric radiators and electric towel rads in the bathrooms. These rads operate very quickly, and have thermostats. The house is very well insulated. Thus, for me, the non-storage type are more "efficient"...perhaps "effective" would be a better term?
My recent experience with infrared panel heaters has shown me that in the right space, these are very "effective", easy to install, maintenance free and attractive to look at. I cannot get gas in my house, so electricity is the only option. Using an electric wet system has huge installation hassles, and associated costs. All walls are brick, so if I were to replace the old system i would use infrared as its characteristics suit the property very well.
I appreciate that this may not be the solution for many, but may be worth a look for some.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
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918
Location
UK
Heat pumps in thoery should win hands down but in practice they dont.

There are many reasons for this but the biggest one for me is our climate. It is too varied and when cold its also often wet. This leads to icing of the coil and unless you are very savvy can cause a lot of damage. In order to overcome this the manufacturers program them on the safe side which means at the time you need it most the heat pump will be using internal heat to defrost the coil.

Ive seen some horrendous electricity bills from people who were sold an "economical" system purely because they never really came out of defrost, i could manually sort them but the programmed defrost never really worked, efficiently.

One of the other issues is responsiveness, they are not and shouldn't be. They should be ticking over maintaining a steady temperature but people like to whack the temp up and feel toasty radiators on their arse, expensive.

They are sold as being more efficient than gas but only in a few instances have i seen it significantly so, especially when you factor in the £7,000+ installatoon costs.

I like the principle of the heat pump but have yet to see it perfected.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
Hi @pirate. I like the term effective heating as opposed to efficient heating.

I do get what your saying regards cost of installing gas.
Cost off installing gas combi with say 8 rads. £6000.
Or a few electric rads £1000.

If your yearly energy bill is £1200 as electric and by converting to gas it could drop to £900. It would take 20 years to get your money back and then you would probably have to have a new boiler fitted due to age.

Under those conditions electric is more financially viable.

I agree that off peak storage heaters are not efficient, because you have them on when you don’t need to heat the house and controlling the output during the day is nigh on impossible. By 5-6pm when you get in from work there is no heat left so you have to turn on the day tariff electric heaters.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
I love the technology and idea behind airspurce heat pumps, but I have also come to the conclusion they are not as viable as the claims made by manufacturers.

The only thing I can see a use for them is to heat an outside pool in the summer months.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
I love the technology and idea behind airspurce heat pumps, but I have also come to the conclusion they are not as viable as the claims made by manufacturers.

The only thing I can see a use for them is to heat an outside pool in the summer months.
They will work in a communal or estate heating system where larger HPs work in concert this way you can invest heavily in control systems and monitoring to hit the efficiency numbers.
 

pirate

Regular EF Member
Messages
2,108
Location
Glasgow
Oh, I love a quiz!
Imagine a workshop, twin brick outside walls, no cavity insulation, concrete floors covered in a vinyl layer, single storey, well insulated ceiling with 300mm insulation squeezed under 22mm chipboard loft flooring. Floor area is 100 square meters, ceiling height is 3 meters, windows and doors take up 10% of wall area, and glazing in these is top notch. What would be the likely requirement in KW to keep this building at 22 degrees assuming the stats keep the heaters on to maintain internal temperature regardless of outside temperature?
Or is that just too much of a guess?
 

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