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jason121

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Arms
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Does the savings made on green deal products pay for the loan from the Govt ?
Say £250.00 on a 4kw solar in electric will go back in the pot to pay for the loan ?
 
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S

Somecamel

That's the general idea however the money doesn't come from the Government, it would come from private investors etc. The Interest rate that I keep on hearing being bandied around is 7.5%. At this rate the golden rule will never be met.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
See other threads on the Green deal, IF you could get SolarPV in on the golden rule, then any green deal funded renewable energhy project will NOT get Feed-in Tariff or RHI ... you'ld be better of with a commercial loan, even better, including adding it to your mortgage, but check with an FSA ...
 

jason121

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Arms
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
I have been looking at my customers EPC and solar pv has a tick a green deal loan.
 

widdler

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Arms
Yep but no FIT is payable if Green Deal funded ....
That's a very important point which seems to misunderstood by many.
 
R

Ramjam

Hi,

Actually the system can still claim FITs as long as no public money is used to fund the green Deal. If the Green Deal Provider raises the funds for the green deal loan without using public money then it is still OK to claim fits but if they for example raise the money from the Green Deal Finance Company then that is set to be seeded with £775m of government funds which would render the system ineligible for FIT payments.

We are preparing to be Green Deal Providers and this point is seldom understood. Green Deal finance is very up in the air right now and the Green Deal Finance company will not be in a position to fund a green deal until at least the end of April 2013 so don't hold your breath. Green Deal is transmogrifying into a process rather than a finance mechanism. The finance mechanism will emerge eventually but seems to be less and less the focus.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
@RamJam

That raises 2 things

1) What of some of the funding is ECO funding .... is that deemed 'public money'?

the Green Deal Finance company will not be in a position to fund a green deal until at least the end of April 2013
and
2) So how come B&Q (aka the Kingfisher group) have been allocated 20 Green Deal 'slots' per week from October to December, out of the 50 / week available, if as you're saying actually nothing aint gonna happen till April? Surely the funding and payments come from / go to (via the leccy company) the Green Deal Provider B&Q in this case - what is the role then of 'The Green Deal Finance Company', as far as I was aware there wasn't a single central finance co.
 

Worcester

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Arms
Actually I think I answered my own question (and you mudded the water!)

2) above is the crux, - where the money comes from, I know quit a few Green Deal Providers that are already self financed...

And removing the focus from the money is exactly what they are trying to do because:

a) the money people are they ones that will make all the money
b) the ramifications of a 2nd charge on a property are enormous.
 
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Worcester

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Arms
The Golden Rule allows you to use ECO funding which is kind of an offset for / to the Golden Rule

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Otherwise EWI would never meet the golden rule either.
 
S

Somecamel

So how does the ECO funding work? It comes from the Energy companies and I was under the impression was to be utilised for hard to treat homes? I:E Solid Wall insulation, I don't think solar will get a look in.
 

Worcester

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Arms
We've seen one local hard to treat house (EWI only solution) go from a Low E on EPC to a solid B, by the addition of a big chunk of PV, I guess it all depends upon how people choose to manipulate it. I just thinks that we are going to have 2 - 3 years of messing it around to try to get it to work before they give up.

The winners will be Social Housing and Private Landlords - effectively get the incumbent tenant to pay for it .... The ex Free Solar crowd will be all over it with marketing, Mark Group will have their usual telesales campaigns, everyone will cry foul play, installation prices will be pushed through the floor leading to poor workmanship. Customers will get ripped off and the financiers will laught all the way to the Bahamas, aka bank .. The governement will try to tweak it here, there, then call for an emergcny review, they'll screw that up, then have a strategic review, and Real will collapse under the strain of loads of complaints.
 
G

Greenday


You have absolutely nailed it there.------Local Authority’s will upgrade their housing stock whilst the tenant pays for it!!---This is a main stay of the Green Deal. What does the home owner get? A rather high interest loan and forced into using Green Deal contractors. This may be a good or bad thing----but in Birmingham the standard of local authority installs is poor to say the least! Will Green Deal installs be the same?
 
Orange tick ???? means self funding required or funding from eco may apply
I have been looking at my customers EPC and solar pv has a tick a green deal loan.
 
G

Greenday

As a renewables company I would like to think we could benefit from the Green Deal-------but who knows at the moment----certaintly the training companies will benefit!!

I still hope for an early announcement of where we are going with the RHI

Whats your view MEP?
 

Worcester

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Arms
do you think small sme can make a living from green deal?
Nope, I reckon the compliance overheads will be a cost killer.

One man band may as a subbied installer for one of the big firms.

Big firms, Mark Group etc will do just fine thanks.
 
T

TedM

Barker said on Monday:

I am also pleased to confirm that we are on track to launch the Domestic RHI consultation in September.
Strange, as I thought there had already been a consultation on this very same subject about 2 years ago.
 
S

SRE

It seems that Green Deal plans can't be approved until January so no-one is expecting installations before Feb at the earliest, including the utility companies who are of course providing the funding through ECO.

One of the key providers (not mark group) commented today that converting householders is going to be very difficult, they are hoping to get 1 in 10 conversion rate. They are experienced project managers and so far have spoken the most sense outside this forum. They ran a Green Deal pilot and found surprise surprise that a lot of properties just weren't suitable. They gave an example of an 80's house with cavity and wall insulation but an older boiler and controls. Yes they would benefit from a newer boiler and controls but they couldn't get the savings to meet the golden rule. In their words - "I wish householders would get a move on and get their lofts topped up for free while they can. By the time GD comes in they will be paying £1,000 for a £350 job because of all the associated costs."

There's still a lot to resolve regarding payment for the GDA's, one firm is offering £75 - guess what type of firm that is! There's an interesting parallel in Atlanta where they charge the customer $380 and the utility company refunds 50% if the customer goes ahead. Their conversion rate is much greater because there's a greater commitment from the customer in the first place.

Meanwhile the bull**** bandits have already moved in and are boasting about producing 1,000 leads a day once GD has started.

Of course whatever happens the government will be able to claim victory because of all of the social housing providers who have huge retrofit rolling programmes that they find it very difficult to fund. Green Deal is a gift for them and they are ready to go - low hanging fruit but government gets to claim success.

MEP - :nonod:
 
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JulianC

I have steered clear of the Green Deal since I first decided it was a White Elephant a couple of months back. However, on revisiting it in the last couple of days to see if anything has changed, I find it has got even more preposterous. So for that reason aaahm oot. See you again in a couple more months....

The only people that will do well will be the training companies and the financiers (assuming they can find customers, which as far as I can see is the big stumbling block when you look past social housing).
 

Worcester

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Arms
Thinking this through
(And reading these: BBC News - Green home improvements proposals 'dropped' and BBC News - Green Deal 'means 1.5m homes lose insulation subsidy' - notice they are under politics and business not environment!!)

Perhaps we should scrap all the green deal finance programme, and simply appoint ECO assesors to do the same role as the Green Deal Assesors, and get them to identify the ECO grant value and let people then choose how to spend it - loft insulation, cavity wall, EWI etc, that removes the big sales push from Mark Group etc and puts the decision in the hands of the householder how they want to spend the ECO... After all the energy companies still have to contribute to it so everyone is paying anyway.. The householder then uses the eco or aranages a top up loan at rates they choose to pay - they could even add it to the mortgage..


The one where it's all going wrong http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18074650 is under Environment!
 
T

TedM

ECO is supposed to be ring-fenced for difficult to treat homes (e.g. low income and solid wall EWI) but I will not be too surprised if that fence turns out to be made of elastic and gets stretched a bit.
 

Worcester

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Mentor
Arms
@TedM, I know the political drive and the mechanims here are clearly two different things.

However with what you've just said, on ECO, that confirms my appproach above - I should have expanded it a bit ' Mrs Bloggins wants EWI - that has an ECO grant of x, so will cost you y, - here's how you could pay for it ' and a criteria would be that the value of the ECO is to make sure it fits a (new) Golden Rule, else no ECO grant/subsidy i.e just beacuse I don't want to finance it via the Green Deal Loan, doesn't mean I can't get the ECO element.

Of course, seeing as you will (I believe this is one of the rules) be able to pay off your Green Deal loan at any time without penalty, perhaps we are going to see a lot of smart re-financing and a lot of 'missold' green deal claiming companies springing up to help people get out of it. I just can't see REAL doing a good enough job on this and being able to manage it let alone police it properly.
 
S

SRE

Does anyone know much is going to be available for ECO EWI and what will the criteria be? I understand the difficult to treat and low income bit, but what sort of allowance is there going to be??
 
S

SRE

Latest green Deal musings - £45 - £65 per Green Deal Assessment. I'm beginning to think someone has a serious sense of humour.
 
T

TedM

ECO is supposed to be £1.3 billion a year. I haven't seen anything that indicates what the per property figure would be.
 
S

SRE

Ted, I'm disappointed - you've let me down ;-) You're supposed to be the font of all knowledge :yes:
 
T

TedM

Well what I'm saying is that I don't think there is a real per property figure. There is £1.3 billion a year and there may be a target number of houses to benefit from ECO per year. And I'm sure I have even seen indicative figures from DECC for EWI in the £10-20k per property region. But I don't think DECC have said that there is any specific limit of how much ECO can be allowed per property. I would expect ECO benefit to be decided on a case by case basis. If all the £1.3 billion gets spent half-way through a year then ECO would have to be suspended until the start of the next year, I think.
 
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